Classical guitar recording solutions

[kys]

Hi everyone, I am looking for advice on recording classical guitar (using my mac notebook for portability puposes). Obviously I do not require an elaborate setup, a decent 2 input preamp is all that is required, and even then 90% of the time I would be recording in mono. What type of pre/interface is reasonable for these purposes. All that is required is something like the M-audio fast track pro, as it has phantom power, 2 XLR inputs. Obviously I question the audio quality produced by it, and wonder if you guys have any experience with the unit, or something better in a similar price range.

Also, I was wondering if anyone had advice on a mic. Ideally, I would like a neumann km184, as this is most widely used for classical guitar recordings, however I don't have that much money. Again, I would probably just start with 1, as stereo recording isn't an issue (for now). I was looking along the lines of a shure sm81, however again, a little on the expensive side. I was wondering how something like the AT3031 (or even 4041 if it is that much better), rode NT5, or the AKG C1000s would perform? Would that preamp actually do a decent mic justice? Also, someone told me that SE was producing great mics at decent prices, and suggested the SE3A. It is similar price to the others, at about 200. Anyone have experience with it?
All feedback is appreciated, and I look forward to cost effective suggestions! Thanks

[No4PCs]

Hi friend, i think M audio 24/96khz and protools m powered will do the job.
Mics AT 40 line is good, but Rodes too.AKG good too, I think you with 2 good condenser mics and a tube mic pre 2 channels will do the thing. I like the sound fo the condenser mic to violin, cello etc...
Thats my simple opinion. Now, apogee launched pci card called Symphony, 32 channels for Macintosh computers, i think much $$$, anyway..
What kind and how many ppl will play together? type of instruments?
The tube mic pre stereo , in my opinion , no needed have compressor, just the pre itself, because classical music its better recorded without compression to dont make interference in dynamic execution.Or thinking better, you can get a multidirecional condenser mic, because all ppl can recorded around the mic, you know?2 multidirecional mics in stereo in the midlle of the room !Better you hear from another guys here in the forum
Sorry my english.
Best of luck.

[kys]

It is strictly for recording solo classical guitar. I know I am compromising sound quality, but it is preferable that it is a firewire or usb interface, for use with my mac laptop for portability. That is why I was thinking the M-audio fast track pro. i am unaware of any alternatives, and I was thinking about the m audio 410, however it seems identicle to the fast track pro except that it is firewire (USB 2.0 is A OK for what I need), and it has infinitely more I/O's than what I require (as only 2 XLR's AT MAX are needed), and thus this fast track pro deal seemed like a perfect solution. Again, input on quality, etc is appreciated

[sunflute]

I would suggest you get a used Mbox, which gives you the ability to edit in Pro Tools, plus the use of Plugins. And then get a pair of decent Small Diaphragm condenser microphones. The NT5s are very nice but a bit on the dark side. Adk SC-T, the MXL 604s, or Oktavas are all quite nice and in the same ball park money wise. If you want something better then you can step up to Peluso CEMC6s or the Josephsons c42s.

Now a days you a multitude of options at varying price ranges.

You may also want to try ribbons on classical guitar. The shinybox ribbons are getting a lot of mention here and they are reasonable.

I heard that the Bach recording of David Russell for Telarc (which is simply stunning) was recorded with a pair of Coles 4038 Ribbons and some sennheiser MKH mics for room sound.

Good Luck,
Peace
Marco

[Timothy Lawler]

Mic's for classical guitar: I'd avoid the C1000... very shrill. Whatever mic's you use, room acoustics will matter more than gear for classical gtr. Low cost mic's I've tried that can work well in a good room: MXL603s, MXLV67, Behringer ECM8000, KEL HM-1. For a little more, Oktava 012, SP C4, SM81. Re low cost pre's, the Electro Harmonix 12AY7 tube pre is very nice on guitar but requires a balanced input on the interface. M-Audio DMP3 is good.

Tim

[aussie_techie]

there are so many interfaces out there its hard to know where to begin. as suggested an mbox could be a good idea but it all depends if you want Pro Tools or not.
as for mics ive always found the rode NT3 to be good for all acoustic guitars, the medium sized capsule gives a nice sound. may or may not be the best for your situation but they are very versitile so give it a try

[kys]

At the outset, I have been kinda leaning towards either the AT3031's, or the SE3A. I have heard that the SE mics are a steal for the price, however I have limited experience with using recording equipment, and haven't used a variety of mics, so I personally have no idea. Any opinions on these mics and how they are in comparison to the ones mentioned above? Also, are the MXL's you guys mentioned similar quality to the other mics you suggested, because they are about $150 cheaper.

[kys]

ya, the mic sounds pretty good for sure, however it is a little pricey for me at the moment, and I thus I was considering the AT3031 instead (or the 4041 at most if it was by far a better option)

[cdog]

Get a Mini-Me and a pair of KM184s.

Its gonna cost your about $2K but you will not regret it, and you won't have to ever upgrade.

[simonv]

Originally Posted by cdog

...you won't have to ever upgrade.

Yeah, we all say that, but then..

[feyshay]

cd dog--
why a pair of km's versus spending twice that for one better microphone?
How much of a stereo sound can get from an acoustic?
I'm curious, because I'll be getting a mic or a pair and do a lot of acoustic guitar.

[Sarusan]

I'd try to stay away from the KM-184s and try to find a pair of KM-84s. They are far more forgiving in the high end and will take eq far better. It's my mic of choice for nylon strings.

Steven

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by feyshay

cd dog--
why a pair of km's versus spending twice that for one better microphone?
How much of a stereo sound can get from an acoustic?
I'm curious, because I'll be getting a mic or a pair and do a lot of acoustic guitar.

That's a good point. I've used KM184's and I would much rather use a single Schoeps (I have two) than two 184's. If one has a very nice room to track in, stereo config's can sound great... but having a nice stereo image of the room doesn't compare, IMO, to having a much better quality sound from a single mic.

I think the only good way to buy mic's is to try them first. Rent them, buy studio time where they have the mic's you're interested in, demo them at retail showrooms, etc. A series of quick recordings put on CDR will tell a lot.

Tim

[kys]

Haha, yes as much as I would love KM84's, i just don't have the 1500 kicking around for a pair. RIght now, 200 is gonna have to do for 1 :P

[sdelsolray]

It's not exactly clear what your budget is. Seems kinda low. Don't expect too much if all you want to spend on a pair of SDs and a two channel preamp is, say, $500 or so. Nonetheless, you can certainly put together something good. Given your tastes, you'll eventually upgrade anyway, so what you're getting now is not a permanent solution.

I'd suggest:

Digidesign MBox2
2x Peluso CECM6 (cardioid or hypercardiod capsules)
Monitors
Mic stands, cables

Probably south of $1,500 (depnding on the monitors you select)

For solo classical guitar, this setup would work very well, and would be portable.

Later, when you upgrade, skip the Neumann KM184s. Microtech Gefell M300s are a better choice for a similar price. Or go up a level to Schoeps or the Microtech Gefell M29x Series. Those are nice mics.

[rmx16]

Here's my set-up:

Powerbook 867 os 10.2.8 (old school)
Digital Performer 4.5
Metric Halo ULN-2
AT 4041's x2

Rock solid for the last 2 1/2 years

Peace

[cdog]

Originally Posted by kys

Haha, yes as much as I would love KM84's, i just don't have the 1500 kicking around for a pair. RIght now, 200 is gonna have to do for 1 :P

You're looking at the AT 3031 and the Shure KSM137.

[kys]

Given the disussions i have read, I am thinking that the Presonus Firebox would be a better interface than the mbox's? I have been reading around and apparently the pre's in the firebox are better?
So as of now, I am thinking about:

Presonus Firebox
Peluso mics (or the AT3031 or 4041, or even the SE ones, haven't got feedback on them) as per the advice here

Seem reasonable for my 2 channel needs? Tell me if it is complete garbage.
My budget isn't set at the 299 for this firebox, or the maudio fast track pro, or the mbox, it could be 1000 however I don't want to spend $700 on something that has 10 I'O's when all I will EVER need is 2, and thats at most. Seems like a waste to me, unless the pres are far and above the ones on the units I am considering, which from what i gather from reviews, is not the case (that is, the pres aren't that much better better). Would like to keep the pre at 300
As far as the mics go, 200-300 (for one, 400-600 for a pair) is my budget. Unless there is reason to spend less on the interface and even more on the mics. So ya, my budget is basement low I guess, and I will definitely upgrade. But again, 2 XLR ins is all I need, but maybe for less noise better quality something with 100 is needed........

Sorry about all the newbie questions, but thanks for the honest replies. I am learning a lot. I am mainly a player/performer, however want to try some basic recording of gigs/performances (thus the firewire or USB interface for my mac notebook), and some of my own stuff in home for practice purposes, sound samples, etc. Have done in studio recording, and I believe KM84's were used, with a large diaphram condenser for room if I remember correctly. I thought it provided an accurate reproduction, which is of course desired for this type of recording.

[nathanvacha]

Is anybody going to attack me if i suggest he just take a look over at earthworks? It seems that with classical guitar you want it to sound like a guitar right? and uncolored? I think they've got a mic or two that isn't too expensive and while i've never used them on classical guitar, i can't imagine them not sounding great. firebox is strait, people seem to like them and it comes w/ a lite version of cubase. PT is cool, but i think the mbox sounds like... well, i didn't care for it. get the firebox and invest more in your front end and make your room sound nice. seems to me you can't go wrong there. see how much you have left of your budget, and then i'd say take that to the high end section and bug 'em about what they reccommend for classical guitar as far as preamps.

[kys]

The earthworks stuff is quite a bit more than the afore mentioned budget, no?

[Gaston69]

A stereo pair SMK4060 with DPA4060 + Mbox2

Less then 1000,- Euros including software, the DPA4060 comes with a number of mounting accessories which might be handy when you'll want to record other instruments.
Use the stereo DPA4060 with a mic distance of 38cm on a stereo bar and about 1 to 2 meter away from your guitar and a height of 1.5 meters in a nice concert hall or church and you'll have a very nice open sound with a lot of detail, bass and nice panorama.

I will post later this week a recording I made last week, so this will give you an impression.

listen also to my sound samples & archive on my website.

[Karloff70]

Don't know about the converter...maybe a FF400 or an Audiofire.......but for mics you sound like a pair of Line Audio CM3's would be your nirvana......much more musical than all the other cheapos.....

[Gaston69]

I suppose you are restricted to a certain budget?

If not, you can buy the mic pre Paintpot from Crookwood which is a very fine mic pre for classical recordings and according to people with a lot of experience they call it the best mic pre amp, for more info get in touch with Crispin contact details can be found on Crookwood Home Page - Welcome to Crookwood

Another mic is DPA 4006 however I like the DPA4060 very much and in a lot of cases it's sounds better then the 4006, more detail in the stereo panaroma, 4006 sounds in the far field a bit nosy/wooly, the DPA4060 doesn't

stereo pair DPA 4060 cost approx. 777,- Euro

Stereo pair DPA 4006 cost > 3500,- Euro

and a portable recorder such like Korg MR-1000. 900,- Euro no hassle with computers during your concert just press record button.

[Gaston69]

what ever your budget for a mic is, please go for omni's as they have a very natural sound compared to cardioids

The mics I mentioned are omnies by the way.

[d_fu]

Gaston, did you notice that this thread is almost three years old...?

Originally Posted by Gaston69

what ever your budget for a mic is, please go for omni's as they have a very natural sound compared to cardioids.

Hmmm, cardioids sound unnatural? Interesting...


Daniel

[Loki]

Originally Posted by d_fu

Gaston, did you notice that this thread is almost three years old...?



Hmmm, cardioids sound unnatural? Interesting...


Daniel

Not to be inflammatory, but omni mics have a larger frequency range convered compared to cardioids. Thereby, those mics have a more natural sound.

[Karloff70]

And I always thought the difference was down to the more linear off axis response.......

Having said that, if your cardi's are good quality I'd say it's a stretch to claim they sound unnatural because they're cardioid.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Don't know about the converter...maybe a FF400 or an Audiofire.......but for mics you sound like a pair of Line Audio CM3's would be your nirvana......much more musical than all the other cheapos.....

Right on. AF4 with one or two CM3.

And if kys is really nice I may record some nylon for him with that set up.

AKG-C1000 ?? Nooo, stay away from that for voices and guitar.

Earthworks would be among the best for capture the true sound of the guitar but more costly of course.

AF4 sounds very good (or not at all really since it hase close to no coloration), measures good, looks good, stable drivers, small package.

If you use a mono mic then IMO you need to add some early reflections and/or reverb in the computer. Mono doesn't sounds very fun.


/Peter

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Right on. AF4 with one or two CM3.

And if kys is really nice I may record some nylon for him with that set up.

AKG-C1000 ?? Nooo, stay away from that for voices and guitar.

Earthworks would be among the best for capture the true sound of the guitar but more costly of course.

AF4 sounds very good (or not at all really since it hase close to no coloration), measures good, looks good, stable drivers, small package.

If you use a mono mic then IMO you need to add some early reflections and/or reverb in the computer. Mono doesn't sounds very fun.


/Peter

Skål

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by Loki

omni mics have a larger frequency range convered compared to cardioids. Thereby, those mics have a more natural sound.

Apart from the fact that omnis (as in pressure transducers) have better bass response (and I'm unsure whether that's what you mean by "large"), both the above basic statement and the conclusion drawn from it are flawed, to say the least...