Question - Hanging Mics

[Just Dan]

This Friday I will be recording the second concert for an art song group in a small church hall, which the director also uses for a modern music group as well.

The only place I can put a mic stand is almost towards the back. Granted it's not a huge hall, but it is rather live, and recordings from the location i have to set up sound distant/muddy. The artistic director doesn't want me getting any closer with a stand, both because of the visibility thing, and also the risk of someone not noticing it and tripping.

A guy from the big recording studio in town records the modern music concerts (or used to) and sets up a pair of KM184's at the edge of the "stage" (about a foot or so in front of the performers about knee height). That's a bit extreme, and i can't imagine that it really sounds good

The only other thing i can think of to get closer would be to hang the mics from the structural beams. Should I just use fishing line to hang the stereo bar from the beam, then use the mic cables to adjust the position forward/back? Any suggested line?

I'm not using heavy mics or anything. Just a pair of Rode NT5's and one of those $20 adjustable bars.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

Daniel

[Legacy]

In my experience hanging mics properly so they don't drift is quite an undertaking especially in a church-type space where there wouldn't be an abundance of rigging in place (like in a concert hall). The mics need to have tension from 3 points to fix them well. (usually left, right, and rear or front).

If the director you mention is the music director of the church maybe he can swing the authorization for this type of install but if he is an outsider he should accept that any recordings anyone would make for him from the back of the space will be complete crap. He should let you do your job or the recording is useless to him as well as embarassing to you. If he is running a professional organisation that fundraises it should be pointed out that nearly all of the grant applications ask for recordings to be submitted and clearly make their funding decisions on these recordings. Therefor its obviously advantageous to have ones that sound as good as possible...

Sorry for the rant - pet peeve.

Neumann makes some little auditorium hangers that help to angle the mics and create slack in the cable:

http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=c...sories&dbid=42

All this being said whenever someone asks me to hang my mics I reply 'Sure, I can. Make sure you rent the hall for 4 more hours so I can string line. " They usually come to the ingenious conclusion that its better to have me bring stands.

Best,
Silas

[RaGe]

Ah ah! See my post #15 here: http://gearslutz.com/board/showthrea...407#post563407

[Don S]

I've had a couple conductors intruct me to record from the back. When I ask why, they say "Oh, because it sounds the best back there"!
You just have to smile and politely suggest alternatives. Hanging mics - like Silas politely aluded to is a big pain in the a**. I found a second pair of hands to be a big help during setup.

[John Brook]

Wes Dooley (http://www.wesdooley.com/aea/Modular...ne_Stands.html) manufactures a handy little mike hanger for $10. The mike cable becomes the weight bearer for the mike. The mike's holder screws onto the mike hanger. I use a stereo bar, to control position and separation of the mikes, and run my omni mikes in an X-Y position, but you could also use ORTF. The cables are suspended from structural elements on the ceiling. Because they hang straight down, I adjust the mikes once the cables are settled in place. They never move after that.

It isn't the prettiest thing I've ever seen, but it works darn well. And don't kid yourself, there's no such thing as a true omni mike. They all exhibit directional characteristics, and it's more than enough to make a great stereo recording.

Good luck!

John

[Just Dan]

Thanks for the replies.

This is a small hall. I've seen some big houses with bigger living rooms than this hall - as far as square footage. It's probably 2.5-3 times as wide as it is deep, and the front row of audience is about 6 feet or so from the "stage" which is just about a 8X10 foot platform.

The beam in question from which I was thinking of flying the mics goes straight down the center and looks a good 8-10 inches wide, so the line would go from one side of the stereo bar, up and over to the other side of the bar, acting like two lines, and then the mic cables would be another two lines being held by some hooks already in the beam.

Only reservation is that i can't recall just how high the beam is and if I'll be able to get the line up and over without a huge ladder.

Daniel

[Legacy]

Hi Daniel,

I would suggest adding a rear line that attaches to the exact center of the stereo bar and can pull the bar back from vertical. This fixes the mics in space better and also will angle them down a bit as you pull back. You can adjust how close the mics are to the performers a bit this way too.

I've seen people even use just thick, black sewing thread. Its usually plenty strong for a pair of small diaphragm condensers (and virtually invisible). Depending on the height you might be able to just tack the back end of the line into the beam further back.

Another advantage to thread is you can throw the spool end to get it up and over high places and the spool acts as a weight so it, sometimes, comes back down the other side.

Good Luck,
Silas

[David Spearritt]

Two points are all that's required, but you need to triangulate the rear attachment point for rotational stability. I use a little carbon fibre kite spar and two stainless fishing traces to connect this back to the single fishing line attachment point. Picture shows a Royer SF24 hanging nicely and very stable.

[Yannick]

Oh my god David,

please get that SF24 down, put it into the box and mail it to me, before your line breaks and you blow a ribbon !!!

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Two points are all that's required, but you need to triangulate the rear attachment point for rotational stability. I use a little carbon fibre kite spar and two stainless fishing traces to connect this back to the single fishing line attachment point. Picture shows a Royer SF24 hanging nicely and very stable.

David,

Do you have a second shorter line tied to the body of the mic? What sort of clip did you use to attach the short pigtail with the spinner to the mic thread? I'd like to try this on my next gig in a challenging venue.

Of course, I'll be selling the 2 R121's and picking up a SF12 to do so.

Chris

[David Spearritt]

Here's a close up of the little clip. Its a small T piece you can buy at kite shops, that joins two spars perpendicular to each other. I put a bolt through one hole into any old mic clip and glue the spar into the longer sleeve. Its very light, very stiff and very strong, will never break. This stuff has to withstand HUGE forces in an aerobatic kite.

Also a picture of an SF12, with a standard AKG clip into the same fitting. The trace suppoting the mic in this photo is only there for the photo, the mic cable supports the mass of the SF12 quite OK. MAKE SURE the little Neutrik clip has clicked into the mic properly.

We have recorded hundreds of concerts with these suspensions and by adjusting only two drops from the ceiling, you can get the mic in just the right place, with the tilt you require. Most of the time, the mics are hanging in front of the front row of audience, but sometimes its over their heads. I used to have nightmares about them falling but now its just routine.

I am a deep sea fisherman in my spare time, as well, and use very tough line for these suspensions, there is simply no way any of it will break. But it may be an idea to refresh your public liability insurance just in case.

[Yannick]

David,

those lines sure seem strong enough, I was just joking of course

However, I once witnessed a live orchestral recording with TV broadcast. The main mic was suspended in exactly your way, and between the orchestra and the audience the national TV was showing off their new mobile camera with bigbigbig boom (10m ?) and remote controlled motion of the camera - which was literally flying over the orchestra and audience.

Of course, during one dramatic movement to the side/back/up the camera got stuck in the fishing line from the main mic (SM69) to the back of the hall.
When it got unstuck the SM69 was swooshing front/back and left/right. Must have given a magnificent vibrato effect on the orchestra.

I would never dream of repeating this with a SF24.

On the other hand, a decently flown mic wont get knocked over, like an expensive mic on a normal mic stand tends to be - once in a while.

I need to order some more sandbags ...

[dizziness]

Since we're on the topic,

What would you folks recommend as an alternative mic stand. I need something like 25-29' if I decide not to hang them for my next recording at a specific venue. My Shure A15 didn't reach quite as high as I'd like.

I have my eyes on the 29' carbon fibre from AEA but at $800 its a chunk of change. Any other suggestions?

Chris

[David Spearritt]

Yannick, I can imagine what those big booms would do to a hanging array. The worst ones would be those in the Eurovision Song Contest, they move fast. BTW, how's the Whitfield St MKH80 going. I was going to bid on that.

[Jim vanBergen]

After reading this thread, I'd STILL choose to sit in the front row, put a mic stand in front of me with a nice pair of Neumanns, Earthworks, B&Ks or Schoeps and just deal. It's not the back, its not right in frontof or behind the conductor, but it's about three hours less hassle. Have fun...

[David Spearritt]

... and also not permitted in most concert halls. In our two local main concert halls, stands are banned as they obstruct sight lines to expensive seat paying customers and they are dangerous. On the way to their seat, older folk seem to have a knack of hooking their feet inside one tripod leg and kicking it, causing panic to all concerned.

I routinely setup and complete this hanging system in 40mins from arriving at the hall, proceeding straight to the ceiling, drop the starquad and the fishing line. Run downstairs, attach mic, clips etc. Back up the fly tower, pull up both lines into position and I am done. Sit back, side stage and listen in complete confidence of no structureborne thumping, no stand kicking, no treading on cables and no wrath from the hall administration.

[Yannick]

David,

The MKH80 is just fine, thanks. It must have been hit, or dropped (there is a dent in the grid as described), but performance is on a par with our other two MKH80s (one of which made a 3.5m drop, and unluckily protected the stand on impact (not the other way around , but after cosmetic surgery, the eletronics and capsule measured out perfect at Sennheiser Benelux) - those are solid mics (not the switches mind you ...).

Now we can fly a decca tree of MKH80s - hmmmm, should be easier to position

Did you bid on the MKH30 ?

Concerning the AEA mic stand, we bought an AEA13 HDV, with 13' boom and an optional extension (for those 12m high organ recordings), and have never been happier to put a mic in front of an orchestra. This one wont fall over, but it is fairly expensive.