Recorded Recital Phase problems

[Rokus666]

I have recorded the recital Piano and clarinet in a medium sized hall with spaced pair omni (Oktava MK012) to appogee mini me.

My Waves Dorrough meter is lighting up showing phase problem.
Even if I flip the phase, it's still showing it.

I don't understand. Switching the phase doesn't make a slight difference at all. Not even a subtle one.

How do you know if microphones are set up in phase at first place ?

Now since I have this recorded, is there anything to do to fix this ?

[bremen]

How does it sound?

[boojum]

Originally Posted by bremen

How does it sound?

Exactly. That damned phase meter drove me nuts, too. Then I just started listening to how the music sounded. That solved the problem for me. The meter can be misleading. If your cables are "store bought" they are fine. The mics are fine. Post a clip of the sound, normal and phase flipped in one channel. Post a pic of the meter, too, if you can.

[chris319]

I will be corrected if I'm mistaken, but the way spaced-pair miking works is to deliberately introduce a phase error between the two mics in order to trick the ear into hearing stereo.

[Rokus666]

It sounds totally fine...I think.
Ill post some examples with the phase in and out...

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Rokus666

I have recorded the recital Piano and clarinet in a medium sized hall with spaced pair omni (Oktava MK012) to appogee mini me.

My Waves Dorrough meter is lighting up showing phase problem.
Even if I flip the phase, it's still showing it.

I don't understand. Switching the phase doesn't make a slight difference at all. Not even a subtle one.

How do you know if microphones are set up in phase at first place ?

Now since I have this recorded, is there anything to do to fix this ?

1. Where were the piano and clarinet located relative to the microphones?

2. What was the distance between the mic array and the performers?

3. What was the distance between the microphones?

4. Are both mic bodies wired the same way-for example: pin2+ or-? (They often aren't.)

[Rokus666]

1. Piano and clarinet were about 8ft from the microphones.

2. The microphones were spread about 5ft apart in omni, and they were placed almost symmetrically to the width of the room.

3. The microphones are Oktava MK012 and they are modded by Michael Jolly.

Flipping the phase didn't make a slightest difference in sound. i am trying to figure out how to upload sound clips in here. Will do as soon as I get it...

[Nobilmente]

Forget the meter to a certain extent and use your ears, if it is sounding ok then it is ok.

As soon as non coincident, or multi mics are employed phase is not precise.

But this lack of phase correlation is what can give spaced mics (omnis in this instance) a sense of spaciousness. One of the reasons spaced omnis are used is to introduce a little of this, along with their other benefits of better bass and lack of off axis colouration. Depending on the degree, I think most people like this reduction of the phase correlation but there are others who don't care for it as much and prefer a more precise image.

A phase meter is going to show some signs of out of "phaseness" in most cases, the key is that you say your recording sounds the same when you completely flip the phase, so if the recording sounds well and has a good balance and image - it may be worth considering it as ok. Perhaps trusting your ears and having faith in your judgement of it?

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by Rokus666

2. The microphones were spread about 5ft apart in omni, and they were placed almost symmetrically to the width of the room.

That is way, way, way too far apart.

Originally Posted by Rokus666

Flipping the phase didn't make a slightest difference in sound.

Not surprising in the scenario you've described.

Depending on the room, you may need to move the mic's closer to your ensemble.

OT: Don't be afraid to use the cardioid caps for this application, in ORTF. They definitely will serve up the low end of the piano-no problem at all there! It might be better to go that way (ORTF) until you are a little more experienced. Also, compare your recordings with similar commercial recordings-it may help develop your ear.

BTW: Even though you mic's came from a good source, you need to make sure they are wired the same way. Oktavas are famous for not getting the correct wires to the correct pins.

[donsolo]

Are you getting an actual stereo image?

I mean, if you flip the phase on the L channel and not the R, you should hear only the sides.

I'd probably play with it in M-S and see what's going on in mono translation before losing your mind watching meters. Use your ears, not your eyes.

[rumleymusic]

I will be corrected if I'm mistaken, but the way spaced-pair miking works is to deliberately introduce a phase error between the two mics in order to trick the ear into hearing stereo.

Exactly, I don't get what the problem is here. Phase is just another name for delay which is how omnis work in stereo. No phase discrepancies=no stereo image. What you are seeing is normal and correct.

Lets also not confuse polarity with phase. Flipping the polarity switch (what we are calling the phase switch) will do nothing to change the phase correlation between the mics. My guess is you don't hear a difference because 5 feet is such a great distance that there is little simultaneous information in the mics to cancel out.

[Nobilmente]

I had not read that the spacing was 5ft, yes it is too wide, you probably have left and right but no centre.

I agree with donsolo, and additionally it might be an idea to sum to mono and introduce a little of this to your existing recording. At least try and see how you go on, particularly if you can't redo the recording.

I can't say I have been in this situation so I don't know how you'll get on with the suggestions made, but I would certainly have a look at it, and then trust your ears. There's no point in worrying about the meter, it's not making any sound.

[Boschen]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

I had not read that the spacing was 5ft, yes it is too wide, you probably have left and right but no centre.

I agree with donsolo, and addionally it might be an idea to sum to mono and introduce a little of this to your existing recording. At least try and see how you go on, particularly if you can't redo the recording.

I can't say I have been in this situation so I don't know how you'll get on with the suggestions made, but I would certainly have a look at it, and then trust your ears. There's no point in worrying about the meter, it's not making any sound.

I like this idea. Clever!

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I mean, if you flip the phase on the L channel and not the R, you should hear only the sides.

hmm only if you also sum to mono. If you listen in stereo and flip one channel you're just listening to one channel polarity inverted stereo.