LCR Spaced Omnis Gig Report and Samples

[hbphotoav]

Last night I recorded The King's Brass (Tim Zimmerman & the King's Brass) and the Nashville First Baptist Church Chancel Choir in a seasonal concert at the FBC auditorium (1,200 seat, brick-and-glass, 60' ceiling). I wanted to try a L/C/R omnis array similar to what Jack Renner used on the TELARC Fennell/CSW Soundstream LP "Holst/Handel/Bach". Since I don't own a trio of Schoeps transformerless SKM-52U, I had to make do with my pair of Gefell M296 on the flanks and a DPA 4061 in the center. My thought was that they sound more similar than my other omni choices... I also put up a pair of Senn 8040s between the choir and the brass.

Tracking: DAV BG8 -> Apogee Ensemble +4 line inputs -> Logic 9 MBP -> HDD. 44.1/24bit to 320mbps mp3 in Logic.

Bounce: One is a three mic mix at L/R -0.5dB, and the C at +4.0 from nominal "0". The other is a five mic mix at L/R -0.5dB, the C at +4.0, and the Senn pair at -2.5dB... they were panned about 50% into the center. L/R were panned hard.

Photos are the basic setup at rehearsal; the view from my dark corner (showing the Sennheiser pair); my road rig... the small box under the Edirol is a 9v headphone amp; and (sorry for the sideways image) the FrankenStand... a double boom K&M tripod with a 5' thin rod thing to get the DPA 12' in the air, secured by a sandbag on the base.

Comments? Criticisms? Thoughts?

Thanks for listening.

HB

[joelpatterson]

Sounds very clear and emotional... but it's also kind of "mono" and the levels at the beginning are pretty quiet seeming... once it hits the true crescendo, the levels rise into normal territory but it's still somewhat "controlled" or "suppressed" and the instant of the cymbal crash, it finally sounds full and lifelike.

My bias in these things is, hopefully, notorious-- and it says that in order to arrive at a listenable final product, you need to convert the 20 or 30 or 40 dB swings of reality into 10 dB swings-- which is to say, while the teeming, blistering, balls-meet-wall crescendoes should be bouncing against digital zero, the rest of it can't really drop much below -12, or else it just vanishes for your average person in your average listening situation.

But of course and obviously, that's just me, whoever I am.

[hbphotoav]

The "Angels" clip is simply L/C/R... the DPA is +4 and the Gefells -2.5 from "normal" 0 tracking.

The "Also Sprach" is the same, plus the Sennheisers at +2.5 to add some clarity to the tymps (which were placed at the back of the stage, near the choir rail). The trumpets were across the stage front, grouped slightly to house left, and the trombones and tuba were in the house, directly behind the array, about as distant as the trumpets.

320 mbps mp3s from Logic.

[NorseHorse]

I too would like to hear more of the L/R mics.

I spoke with an engineer last week who advocated LCR recording and LCR playback as the ideal formats.

[philper]

what app are you using for recording?

I saw other posts of yours where you were praising the PreSonus 24.4.2--why didn't you use that for this gig? (just curious..)

Good job on the recording--good balance between all--everyone there even in the biggest moments.

phil p

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by philper

what app are you using for recording?

I saw other posts of yours where you were praising the PreSonus 24.4.2--why didn't you use that for this gig? (just curious..)

Good job on the recording--good balance between all--everyone there even in the biggest moments.

phil p

For eight tracks or fewer, I like the small rack... and the DAV and Apogee mic amps. I'll be on the StudioLive on the 21st for another Lee Roy Parnell tracking gig at Nashville's Hard Rock Cafe. This stuff was tracked through Logic Pro 9... as will be the StudioLive, since he and I both use Logic for mixing. He has a lot more plugins and outboard, though. As you might imagine.

HB

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

I too would like to hear more of the L/R mics.

I spoke with an engineer last week who advocated LCR recording and LCR playback as the ideal formats.

Here you go. Hard L/ C /Hard R at parity (nominal 0) from the tracking... Sennheisers at parity, panned hard L/R. Let me know what you think...

[Brackish]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

in order to arrive at a listenable final product, you need to convert the 20 or 30 or 40 dB swings of reality into 10 dB swings

Makes sense. Question is, how to get there.

I've been mixing in the box but not been that happy with
the results with regards to compression, which has lead
me just recently to be looking at hardware compressors
that might be suitable for classical.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Brackish

... Question is....

Hamlet never had to face this kind of thing, that's for sure.

The way I tackle this bull by the horns-- is to have some kind compression/limiting scheme at the show-- Presonus CL-44's, ACP-88's-- before the signal hits the Alesis HD-24-- so that the last, most obnoxious, full-bore finale moments are shaved of their superfluous 6 or 8 or 10 dBs. I've found that when everyone is blazing away, giving it their all, you're not losing any content by limiting the excess-- as long as you preserve the transient information, it's just a huge blast anyway-- if the heft and the majesty of the blast is maintained, your recording will sound like it did at the show-- overwhelming, deafening, all that good stuff.

And then, in the box, if you can sidechain the "subsidiary" mics to give way when the main pair is reaching full density-- you're on your way to a mix where it's never "too soft," but the loudest passages are always "behaved."

It goes without saying that all these subterfuges need to be completely undetectable to be successful.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Here you go. Hard L/ C /Hard R at parity (nominal 0) from the tracking... Sennheisers at parity, panned hard L/R. Let me know what you think...

I like it - a vivid recording, and a more even stereo-perspective than I would have thought considering the big spread between L/R microphones. The tiny dpa seams like a perfect center microphone...

Oh I forgot the Sennheisers... may we even hear the sound without those..?

::
Mads

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Brackish

Makes sense. Question is, how to get there.

I've been mixing in the box but not been that happy with
the results with regards to compression, which has lead
me just recently to be looking at hardware compressors
that might be suitable for classical.

Here: Mixture of 90% fader riding, 5% parallel compression (lifting softest parts by about 6 dB), 5% limiting the highest peaks like timpani attacks (attenutating not more than 6 dB, it's really only about catching peaks).
I try to end up at about -23 LKFS for the whole album.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Here you go. Hard L/ C /Hard R at parity (nominal 0) from the tracking... Sennheisers at parity, panned hard L/R. Let me know what you think...

This sample sounds better to me than the others. It would be nice to hear it without the 8040s.

Yesterday I watched again Glenn Gould - The alchemist. The engineer recording him was using 3 x Neumanns as mains in LCR config (not sure which one exactly but LDs, something like U87/67/89).

It is quite paradoxical that 'Thus spoke Zarathustra' is played and applauded in churches

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti

This sample sounds better to me than the others. It would be nice to hear it without the 8040s.

Yesterday I watched again Glenn Gould - The alchemist. The engineer recording him was using 3 x Neumanns as mains in LCR config (not sure which one exactly but LDs, something like U87/67/89).

It is quite paradoxical that 'Thus spoke Zarathustra' is played and applauded in churches

I'll try to get just the main array up tomorrow... busy AV schedule today.

I agree about "Also Sprach"... I guess the popularization in "2001: A Space Odyssey" combined with the aural bombast tends to negate the philosophical disconnect... it was a rousing opening. I guess ultimate irony would be "Carmina Burana" in a Baptist church...

And thanks to all for the comments. My post-neophyte education continues...

[hbphotoav]

OK. Sorry for the delay... still a busy pre-Christmas schedule.

Here are two more clips, as requested, without the Sennheisers. The first is the LCR setup with the DPA 4061 at -3dB relative to the Gefells. The second is just the Gefells. I'm aware that the mics were probably 10' too far away from the source (most of the time... the source - the brass octet - kept breaking into smaller parts and moving all over the room as part of their schtick) but there was, in this instance, no option. I'm hoping to do the same setup in the same room next Sunday night with choir and a small orchestra (20 or so) with the mics 3-4' out from the closest players, 10-12 feet above them.

HB

[mljung]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

OK. Sorry for the delay... still a busy pre-Christmas schedule.

Here are two more clips, as requested, without the Sennheisers. The first is the LCR setup with the DPA 4061 at -3dB relative to the Gefells. The second is just the Gefells. I'm aware that the mics were probably 10' too far away from the source (most of the time... the source - the brass octet - kept breaking into smaller parts and moving all over the room as part of their schtick) but there was, in this instance, no option. I'm hoping to do the same setup in the same room next Sunday night with choir and a small orchestra (20 or so) with the mics 3-4' out from the closest players, 10-12 feet above them.

HB

The result is pretty dull and opaque sounding, I understand why you added the Sennheisers.

::
Mads

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by mljung

The result is pretty dull and opaque sounding, I understand why you added the Sennheisers.

::
Mads

Yep. Sometimes you get the room... and sometimes the room gets you.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Yep. Sometimes you get the room... and sometimes the room gets you.

[looking forward to next go, with closer LCR setup]

::
Mads

[zakco]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

The way I tackle this bull by the horns-- is to have some kind compression/limiting scheme at the show-- Presonus CL-44's, ACP-88's-- before the signal hits the Alesis HD-24-- so that the last, most obnoxious, full-bore finale moments are shaved of their superfluous 6 or 8 or 10 dBs.

Wow. 6-10 db on a classical source right to tape? When it comes to location work, I rarely if ever have the kind of monitoring environment where I'd be confident committing to that kind of pummeling at the source...

I don't disagree that the final product might need a substantially narrower dynamic range, but I try to do most of the heavy lifting with fader automation at mix time and keep the dynamics processing a little lighter.

Never realized what a purist I was ...

Z

[MichaelPatrick]

Very nice! Spaciousness with those dynamics pack a powerful punch.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by zakco

Wow. 6-10 db on a classical source right to tape? When it comes to location work, I rarely if ever have the kind of monitoring environment where I'd be confident committing to that kind of pummeling at the source...

I don't disagree that the final product might need a substantially narrower dynamic range, but I try to do most of the heavy lifting with fader automation at mix time and keep the dynamics processing a little lighter.

Never realized what a purist I was ...

Z

What was that ad for a Rolling Stones record long ago... "Clean Minds. Pure Hearts. Dirty Work."?

You sure don't want to abuse the compressing, and leave yourself with bizarre, distorted, intractable and inexcusable artifacty remnants of anything-- but-- man-- when a timpani player gets to his big moment, and he imagines he's the strongman at the circus, trying to smash the maul down on the lever that flips the little thing up to hit the bell-- we KNOW we've gotten to the loudest loudingness finale-- we don't need to condemn everything that's come before to a netherland of -60 dB levels just to please this tyrant.

Oft-times I am called on to prepare masters for CD duplication of classical concerts of recordings supplied by others-- and typically there will be a RMS of -40 or something equally insane, and I will ponder what unfortunate situation the guy was struggling under, and THEN we get to the end and the tympani crash roars up to -1... and my gut reaction? "This is CHILDISH! Take a little responsibility for your obligations to your colleagues further down the assembly line! You are making a recording that will someday need to be listenable!-- in theory anyway!"

[digitalolive]

Well said, although our timpanist is a petit Japanese woman named Yoko, but she can hit'em hard when she wants to!