Dilemma between close and distance miking. Help needed.

[lunarair]

I recently did a job involving a classical wind band. One of the songs was a modern Broadway piece incoporating a drumset and electric bass.

My plan is to stereo mic the whole band and close mic the drumset and di the bass.

Stereo pair is AB omni with DPA 4006a provided by the concert hall, didn't have chance to manipulate their setup. Distance around 20ft behind the conductor stand, 20 ft height.

During the mixing stage, track from the wind band was good one it's own. However when mixed with the close-mic drumset and the di bass the difference in ambience make them very roomy and distant, attack are sluggish. Turning up the AB pair volume results in over lot of bleed from the drumset plus a lot of phasing problems.

Anyone of the experts can suggest a fix to this?

It seems that when close miking is incorporated to individual instruments it's necessary to move the stereo pair a bit closer to the orchestra. How do you guys normal deal with concerts with classical + pop arrangements?


Many thanks.
Chit

[John Willett]

Add a delay on the spot mics to compensate for the distance from the main pair.

You need to dial in a delay that equates to the speed of sound in air equivalent to the distance from the spot to the main pair.

This should help tighten it up.

[lunarair]

Thanks so much for the advice!

Tried the method before, didn't help much. The problem actually arised from the bleed/ambiance of the drumset to the stereo pair. Keeping a reasonable level of the orchestra and the drum sounds emerging from a tunnel... keeping it at a level appropriate for the drumset then the orchestra sounds very weak and distant...

That's a pain in the axx....

Chit

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by lunarair

Turning up the AB pair volume results in over lot of bleed from the drumset plus a lot of phasing problems.

That's how drums sound through a pair of omnis more than 20 ft away...
This must be a very dry hall if they actually use those DPAs for non-archival recording. I always thought Decca's 11 ft were rather on the high side of things - they are perfectly good in good halls, but 20 ft and DPA omnis???

It seems that when close miking is incorporated to individual instruments it's necessary to move the stereo pair a bit closer to the orchestra. How do you guys normal deal with concerts with classical + pop arrangements?

There are folks way more experienced than me on this forum, but with a little logical thinking it seems to boil down to using close(-ish) spots for all instruments once one has started using close mics for some, and to try keeping bleed to a reasonable amount.
For "classical + pop" arrangements that means: mic them both classical and pop style: main+spots and close mics. Lots of the spots will perfectly double as close mics (or vice versa). But it's always going to end up with lots of tracks.

[lunarair]

How would you define archival recording? Does it qualifies if they used omni pair to record the extra ambience? ( they dun have audience mic setup the the hall)

It was a big hall capaciting around 1000ppl.

If I am to spot mic everything. How detail should I be aiming for? U mean down to every section? That's hell lot of track count!!

In my case can a shield for the drumset help?

Classical + pop setting sounds like a tough beast to contain...

Chit

[sonare]

Mics 20 ft behind a conductor and 20 ft up is not a main pair-- it is pretty useless. You don't mention the reverb time-- or even if it is live or reverberant. In any case they are too far away to be of any use.

I record a wind ensemble in a 700 seat hall that is remarkably dead, but since I know I will add reverb it am fairly close with Sennheiser 800 in omni.

Being too far back in a dead hall just sounds boxey-- being too far back in a reverberant hall gives you mush. If you are right behind the conductor then adding a spot on the drumset should not be a big deal (with proper delay). Using a DI may not work-- you may need to mic the amp so it will sound more like an acoustic instrument.

Rich

[leddy]

I use a main pair plus spots in almost every recording I do, and I've run into this a few times.

You may not be delaying the spots enough. One thing you might try - import the tracks into a daw (if you have not already). Find cues like a snare crack or something you can use to visually line up (and possibly them behind the main pair a bit) the spots with the main pair. You may just need more delay than you think, especially with the main mics 20 feet or more away (I would have to agree with sonare - that is too far).

Sometimes you might try doing things to the spot mics: compressing, gating, etc. Maybe the phasiness happens in a certain frequency band you can de-emphasize with EQ. Gotta experiment when you are trying to repair something.

In the future, more spots may help - or complicate matters. I'd look at adjusting the main pair first.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by lunarair

How would you define archival recording? Does it qualifies if they used omni pair to record the extra ambience? ( they dun have audience mic setup the the hall)

Well, an archival recording ist just that: for the hall's or ensemble's archive, but not for release. This is usually about keeping it as simple and cheap as possible.
An omni pair 20 ft away may (!) be useful for room, but usually not as main pair. One should listen to know if it's a good room pair or not...

If I am to spot mic everything. How detail should I be aiming for? U mean down to every section? That's hell lot of track count!!

You're doing pop-ish music, so you need pop sound. That's close-miked everything.

Even in "classical", you can easily use more than 30 mics in Mahler or Bruckner without any pop instruments. Think: 3 or 4 spots for each violin section, another 2 vla, 2 vc, 1 double bass. 3 Flutes: either one distant mic or three closer. Clarinets, oboes, bassoons: 2 players each, 1 mic each. Trumpets and trombones: usually don't need spots for presence, but may need one that only feeds reverb. Tuba, euphonium, other bass brass: due to different projection may need spotting.
Timpani: 2 can be picked up with 1 cardioid. If you have 4 timpani, that's often 2 mics. Other percussion may well need spots as well. Harp: 1 mic. Mahler 4 has two harps and a soprano singer (stereo spot). 30 spots/close mics. Plus main pair plus room pair. Plus Hamasaki square for surrounds. Heck, I've seen Norrington record Mozart symphonies with 28 mics.
Main pair is 95% of the result. But it's the other 5% that make it expensive as well as perfect.
That said, with a good hall AND enough time to listen and fine-tune a Decca Tree plus outriggers you can do Mahler 4 with, say, 10...12 mics, and Mozart with 6...8.

In my case can a shield for the drumset help?

Well...a shield mostly keeps direct sound off the audience (and the closer mics). But it's not high enough to shield the 20ft pair from the drums, and the reverb still will be there. Worst case: due to the closer reflecting surfaces, the drums sound even more distant and roomy on the main pair.
It's about getting a good ratio between orchestra (as much as possible) on the one hand and drums (as little as possible) and reverb (as you like) on the other hand. Fig-8 patterns with the nulls towards the drums can help in keeping the drums out of the orchestra mics. Do a search for Steve Remote's "Virtual Gobo" technique.
Oh, and choosing the right kit and the right drummer for that kind of job can help, too. You don't want someone beating the hell out of a heavy metal kit.

[lunarair]

30+ mics for an orchestra... That is something beyond my little firm's capacity right now. But sure I agree the main pair could have been closer. It's just difficult to tell the theatre folks to move their miking in favor of mine... If you know what I mean ... Especially when they are using a pair of DPAs and I am just using AT4050s...

I will do my best to try fixing the song... Next time maybe I should just setup my own main pair instead of using setups from someone who I have no say.

Great sharing from you senior guys.

Chit

[sonare]

I think you are getting the picture-- your ATs at the right location for that ensemble will be much better than their DPAs at the wrong one. They probably won't mover their mics, and with them 20ft back they might as well be cheap mics.

Rich

[pkautzsch]

4050s arent' exactly bad mics. You using these and (usually) getting a good result shows that you know what you're doing. Them setting up the most expensive mics available at the time in the wrong spots shows, well...

As said before, it's about getting the orchestra as clean as possible with as little drum bleed as possible. 4050s can be set to fig-8, can't they, so that might be the way to go.

[Don S]

This is a common problem for us "concert warriors". I do allow tracks with a much different genre (i.e. broadway and classical) on the same concert a degree of difference in post. The phasing is simply your spots too hot, incorrectly panned or time aligned. You may have to tone down your master reverb a couple db as well. Make sure phasing isn't being increased by the verb.

[lunarair]

Being the house engineer one would expect them to know their playground enough to place the mics at the best position. And it requires high diplomatic skills to question their choice. Guess this is the catch of doing mobile location recording.

Usually people skills might be as important as your audio skill.

How's you guy's experience on these 'Home vs away" situations where you have to interface with the house engineers' gear?

Just my 2 cents.

[sonare]

After meeting many "house engineers" and seeing many "house setups" your assumption may be very hopeful. The Carnegie Hall guys are very different from most-- you never said where this hall is, but having only omnis 20ft from the stage does not bode well IMHO.

If you can manage it is always better to run your own stuff but guidelines or firecodes may not allow for that.

Rich

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by lunarair

Being the house engineer one would expect them to know their playground enough to place the mics at the best position.

Well..."best" being usually defined as "out of the way", "optically not disturbing", "not revealing too much detail when the performance is bad", or "picking up a sort-of well-balanced but too distant sound that isn't suitable for commercial purposes and therefore the artist doesn't worry about bootlegging".

And it requires high diplomatic skills to question their choice. Guess this is the catch of doing mobile location recording.
Usually people skills might be as important as your audio skill.

People skills are usually more important, because there are enough people involved that need to accomodate your needs somehow. Audio skills - well, you don't always get to set your mics up where your ear tells you to. Then it's improvisation and "make the most of a mediocre situation" skills.

How's you guy's experience on these 'Home vs away" situations where you have to interface with the house engineers' gear?

Of course, mileage varies widely.
I've done stuff in a good 1990s concert hall where german public radio often records in and broadcasts from. They have a main pair in a good place and this goes to the truck, the archival recorder, and to any stagebox return you like. Plus lots of holes in the ceiling so you can fly anything you like anywhere you want to. Stageboxes up there, inputs can be routed to wherever you like as well. Can do textbook recording in there.
I've done stuff in a church where there was one rope mounted in a place where it didn't disturb the visuals. Unfortunately, about 6 ft too far out. Finally, I was allowed to temporarily set up another rope right over the orchestra. 6 ft too close for a typical main pair. Resulting mic setup was inspired by Mercury's 3 omni technique PLUS that too-far-out pair, plus a few spots. Stands higher than chairs allowed only on outer parts of the stage, in order to not disturb visuals. No video involved, just for the audience. This is where you learn improvisation an unconventional mic placement.

[sonare]

Here is a quote from Tony Faulkner:

"My 4-way array is working well for me. The spacing between the outside omnis is 67cms, and I normally put the directionals 10cms in from each of the omnis (i.e. internal spacing of 47cms). In practice, if I am using these mics on their own or maybe for a live concert with the addition of an extra pair of wind mics then I might move them a bit further back because the 'phased array' does a pretty useful job of 'zooming in'.

Believe it or not I use a carbon fibre main stand for recording many concerts. It is an Ambient multi-section pole jammed and wedged inside a short metal pipe welded to a 27kg steel circular base. The boom cost more than $700 and I bought a carbon fibre side boom as well so as to reach back over the first row of audience. Carbon fibre may be low on internal resonances within the stalk, but still it reproduces faithfully the thumps on the floor from some conductors jumping around on the podium. I bought the carbon-fibre components for lightness and strength."

See Tony Faulkner's solution

[lunarair]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

"picking up a sort-of well-balanced but too distant sound that isn't suitable for commercial purpose."

Hey this is going conspirical!! Are you sure some house engineers actually do that trick to make sure you dun make a profit out of it? Man they dun even own the copyright!

Sonare: nice carbon stand. For me I found those tele stands for lighting useful and cheap. They use the same connector as the audio counterparts. Have you ever got an MD who complains about the huge stand blocking his territory towards the audience?

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by lunarair

Hey this is going conspirical!! Are you sure some house engineers actually do that trick to make sure you dun make a profit out of it? Man they dun even own the copyright!

You left out the most important last part:

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

"picking up a sort-of well-balanced but too distant sound that isn't suitable for commercial purposes and therefore the artist doesn't worry about bootlegging".

This is not about house techs not wanting you to get a decent recording. It's about artists not wanting recordings to be sold without their approval and without compensation, and about keeping them comfortable and confident that the archival recording will not end up in shops.

[lunarair]

Alright so the deliberate degradation is aimed for copyright protection of the artist. That's totally new to me. Thanks for the lesson!

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by lunarair

Alright so the deliberate degradation is aimed for copyright protection of the artist. That's totally new to me. Thanks for the lesson!

Might be a cause - I've encountered artists who were glad the archive mic didn't sound too good. Most artists, however, listen for other aspects (performance!) than for reverb/direct ratio or other technical aspects.