I cant afford the radar

[aabbey1]

Im about to put together a rather sweet set up for live recording its going to consist of.

2x Aurora Audio GTP8
1x Audient ASP008

I dont want to use protools on site and would rather just go mic, pres, recorder so that less can go wrong. I wouldn't mind a radar because ADC is really important to me but I need a recorder with meters on it aswell so i can see my recording level. The Radar with all the bits/cards/controller/meterbridge and licences you need to get what you need it costs an absolute fortune. I want to have a recorder with better ADC than the HD24XR however. Any Suggestions?

[robertshaw]

you can find used RADAR systems for like 5k
and IZ still services the used systems I believe

[PLAbass]

I used a Radar 24 for the express purpose of remote recording for about a year. You can pick one up for about $4k if you're a little patient and do some homework.

Here's the thing though; it's heavy. Like, really heavy. Especially if you put it in a nice shock-mount ATA rack like I did. Now, I thought what you're probably thinking now which is "I'll deal because it's awesome". Let me tell ya though, lugging something like that around gets pretty old and you seriously start to question the value of nice conversion ;-). Plus it's a bit stressful to have something that valuable kicking around in your car or at the venue.

an HD24 would be a great alternative.

[aabbey1]

Are there any other units like Radar that have meters and great ADC. An HD24/HD24XR does seem sensible but are there any other great alternatives

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by aabbey1

Are there any other units like Radar that have meters and great ADC. An HD24/HD24XR does seem sensible but are there any other great alternatives

alesisXR is not a bad unit, also a guy here mods them.

I didn't think the stock XR was bad at all though. It's in the
aurora ballpark sonically. With some nice front end pres
it would be decent it sounds as good as digis 'high end' stuff
and is better than most RME converters

[Fletcher]

Find one used - you'll be very glad you did.

What I find interesting is that a "full blown" RADAR - Nyquist system is about 1/2 the price of a 24 track analog machine in 1985 -- guess that's why there are more studios than there probably should be [sorry for sharing that out loud]

[vintagelove]

save the 3 grand they want for the meterbridge. Buy a 15 inch computer monitor and bring it with you...... Also keep in mind radar is loud..... like machine loud. You do not want it in the same room as the musicians.

[enzee]

If you are just tracking live, why the need for ADC?

When tracking bands live, normally I just capture the performance in the field and bring it back to the studio to edit.

[Bassmankr]

Jim Williams here mods the Alesis HD24XR and per one of his posts to better than Radar sound quality. Many are happy with the stock HD24XR though.

[jslevin]

Originally Posted by aabbey1

I dont want to use protools on site and would rather just go mic, pres, recorder so that less can go wrong.

Have you thought about you're going to monitor the recording?

JSL

[ofajen]

Originally Posted by Bassmankr

Jim Williams here mods the Alesis HD24XR and per one of his posts to better than Radar sound quality. Many are happy with the stock HD24XR though.

Can anyone speak to how loud the HD24XR is? Would it be an issue for it to be in the recording room?

Cheers,

Otto

[Corran]

I've recorded classical guitar in the same room with my HD24XR. The fan IS loud, but unless you are right next to the performer I don't think it's an issue. For ultimate quiet, yes I'd get it out of the room, but for all practical purposes I don't think it will be heard.

[ar c'horrigan]

Great for live JoeCo - Home of the BlackBox Recorder

[JoaT]

Originally Posted by ofajen

Can anyone speak to how loud the HD24XR is? Would it be an issue for it to be in the recording room?

Cheers,

Otto

Not more than a computer would. I have mine racked in a normal rack beside the console close to mixing position, and I don't find it disturbingly loud. There is a fan mod, if you want to make it quieter.

Nice unit, especially for the price.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by ar c'horrigan

Great for live JoeCo - Home of the BlackBox Recorder

Specifically designed for live work.

There are some pretty good deals out there on Radar-24 rigs. Just make sure that it can export WAV files to a DVD, and as has been mentioned, you do not need the meter bridge. In fact, it can cause a very small amount of RF interference for some types of equipment and as a rule, is best left unconnected.

[drtaudio]

I don't have a meter bridge with mine and don't miss it. I looks great on a 23" flat screen and I have no problem seeing the levels even with my failing eyes.

We use the RADAR system for testing our microphones and it is set for 96khz sampling. There is absolutely no latency just like the analogue days.

The drives are noisy so we had to build a 19" case with some sound absorption.

The RADAR has a very accurate clock and we noticed this immediately when recording Laser projector data in sync with the Pink Floyd Laser show.

The slight flutter in the image that we saw with the Tascam system was gone when new laser image programming was recorded on the RADAR.

Also, the input stage to the A/D converter runs on + and - 18 volts so it can handle 6 volts more input level before clipping than most converter inputs.

The RADAR folks spent a lot of time on the analogue side of the A/D and D/A converters.

I use to align Barry's 24 track Studer machine back in th 80's and I guess he got tired of paying me and invented the RADAR system.

Barry really understood analogue recording and the RADAR operation is so intuitive. I love that I can edit by ear on it just like the razor blade and tape days. It the best live Jazz recording system out there.

Mine has TDIF outputs as wells as 24 analogue outputs and AES.

I am not sure if Barry makes a firewire card. That would be handy.

I bought mine for $5K but the studio took some of my microphone in trade.

Cheers, Dave

Advanced Audio Microphones

[BradLyons]

The RADAR is a good box for certain, although it's a little large and heavy for live location recording. Then again, so is the Tascam X48 and the Alesis HD24. I know, I've used them all on several occasions. But one box I must strongly suggest that was slightly brought up is the JoeCo Blackbox..... this is the ultimate location recorder, IMHO. While the RADAR does have warm converters the thing about live recording is it's live---you're going to have lots of other factors that get in the way first before your converters. I've done location recording all around the country, even to another country---and that has always proven itself true. Now with that said you still need good converters, but your microphones and pres are going to have a bigger impact here. Personally when it comes to location recording, smaller is better IMHO :-)

Sonically, the BlackBox sounds great! It's a straight-ahead box that is solid as a rock both in its build and recording---you can't accidentally shut this thing off by grazing the power button or bumping a record track. The JoeCo has a feature that you must hold the power button for 3-seconds before it will even ask you if it should power down. The construction is solid---again, this just works. Another great feature is that the I/O is on DB25 connectors making wiring and transporting FAST and less bulky to deal with. Most 8-channel pres have DB25 outputs these days, again easier for wiring and no worrying if a channel got pulled. The USB port allows for dumping of the files into your computer system, although I do wish Firewire800 were included instead. Everything is recorded to BWF format so there's no file conversion using a special device like the Alesis HD24. I like the Alesis, owned (2) of them---great boxes. HOWEVER, the JoeCo is the ultimate location recorder for 24-tracks IMHO.

[drtaudio]

Wow!!!! I never had a problem with the weight and size of the RADAR but then I was use to having 2" tape machines in the remote truck back in the day and those were heavy.

Even early in the 70's we were bringing a 4-track to live dates and it was bigger than a RADAR but we managed to move it without much problem.

I can still move the Radar by myself without any problem even at 63.

Now I mean this in the kindest way but it seems the "young" engineers are so use to texting and mousing that having to lift something larger than a laptop becomes a bit of a challenge.

I can remember just two of us lifting a 16 track MCI up a flight of stairs. Now that is something you don't want to do everyday as it the size of a small freezer weighed about 200 lbs.

I never considered the Radar to be a burden??? I am really starting to show my age now. It does have D-Sub connectors for all 24 I/O's.

Mine has Tascam I/O's as well on D-subs.

I keep forgetting to ask Barry if he makes a firewire card for it.

The RADAR is compatible with the Mackie Onyx with its D-SUB I/O's which are pretty decent low budget preamps.

I don't have a problem with good microphones as I build them and I have access to all kinds of great preamps. I prefer transformer coupled preamps for live works so I wills just monitor back through a Mackie board and come into its line inputs with my outboards preamps and use the Onyx preamps for room sounds and spares. Its a pretty simple hook-up.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
Advanced Audio Microphones

Originally Posted by BradLyons

The RADAR is a good box for certain, although it's a little large and heavy for live location recording. Then again, so is the Tascam X48 and the Alesis HD24. I know, I've used them all on several occasions. But one box I must strongly suggest that was slightly brought up is the JoeCo Blackbox..... this is the ultimate location recorder, IMHO. While the RADAR does have warm converters the thing about live recording is it's live---you're going to have lots of other factors that get in the way first before your converters. I've done location recording all around the country, even to another country---and that has always proven itself true. Now with that said you still need good converters, but your microphones and pres are going to have a bigger impact here. Personally when it comes to location recording, smaller is better IMHO :-)

Sonically, the BlackBox sounds great! It's a straight-ahead box that is solid as a rock both in its build and recording---you can't accidentally shut this thing off by grazing the power button or bumping a record track. The JoeCo has a feature that you must hold the power button for 3-seconds before it will even ask you if it should power down. The construction is solid---again, this just works. Another great feature is that the I/O is on DB25 connectors making wiring and transporting FAST and less bulky to deal with. Most 8-channel pres have DB25 outputs these days, again easier for wiring and no worrying if a channel got pulled. The USB port allows for dumping of the files into your computer system, although I do wish Firewire800 were included instead. Everything is recorded to BWF format so there's no file conversion using a special device like the Alesis HD24. I like the Alesis, owned (2) of them---great boxes. HOWEVER, the JoeCo is the ultimate location recorder for 24-tracks IMHO.

[BradLyons]

Originally Posted by drtaudio

Wow!!!! I never had a problem with the weight and size of the RADAR but then I was use to having 2" tape machines in the remote truck back in the day and those were heavy.

Even early in the 70's we were bringing a 4-track to live dates and it was bigger than a RADAR but we managed to move it without much problem.

I can still move the Radar by myself without any problem even at 63.

Now I mean this in the kindest way but it seems the "young" engineers are so use to texting and mousing that having to lift something larger than a laptop becomes a bit of a challenge.

I can remember just two of us lifting a 16 track MCI up a flight of stairs. Now that is something you don't want to do everyday as it the size of a small freezer weighed about 200 lbs.

I never considered the Radar to be a burden??? I am really starting to show my age now. It does have D-Sub connectors for all 24 I/O's.

Mine has Tascam I/O's as well on D-subs.

I keep forgetting to ask Barry if he makes a firewire card for it.

The RADAR is compatible with the Mackie Onyx with its D-SUB I/O's which are pretty decent low budget preamps.

I don't have a problem with good microphones as I build them and I have access to all kinds of great preamps. I prefer transformer coupled preamps for live works so I wills just monitor back through a Mackie board and come into its line inputs with my outboards preamps and use the Onyx preamps for room sounds and spares. Its a pretty simple hook-up.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
Advanced Audio Microphones

Are you able to carry-on a plane a RADAR in a single rack transport unit that also stores 24-channels of micpre? THat's kind of my point here ;-) I can fly with a 4-space case that has a JoeCo, (3) True Precision 8's, and my cables. I don't use a mouse, I use a control surface ;-)The JoeCo unit was designed specifically for this. I'm not saying the Radar is a bad choice, not true at all----but for location and remote recording, the JoeCo is significantly less money, sounds great, offers more convenience, is much easier to travel with especially when flying, and offers just an easy way to interface back into whatever studio DAW system is being used back home/in the studio.

[carpmusic]

It's been impossible to get in touch with you. You were supposed to send me my preamps over a month ago (well... we really know how long, don't we??) and I've heard nothing. Please send them to me.

[Mike H]

Well, this thread is a little old, but I'm in the same boat. Maybe somebody can help me.

I want to do some live recording of local bands. Eight tracks would be adequate. I want to record the tracks directly from the mics @ 24-bit/88.2 kHz, and simultaneously have the inputs linked to some analog Outs which could go to the club board/PA.

So basically all I need is a box with 8 quality ADC's and digital recording capability (plus a a direct link from inputs to analog outputs).

Separately, I would shoot video with my Canon SX40HS (or get a camcorder, if the Canon camera doesn't provide sufficient video quality).

At home, I would transfer the digital tracks to my Apple Pro 8-Core 2.4, mix in Pro Tools HD Native, and then sync up the video and stereo audio mix.

I've looked at:
(1) Radar V Nyquist. Unfortunately, it is outside my budget (this work will be my "donation" to local bands, I won't get paid for it). I would be buying 24 ADC's and 24 DAC's and I only really need 8 ADC's. Maybe I could swing a used one, but I would need to be confident it is much superior to my other options......is it?

(2) JoeCo Blackbox BBR1B. The price is doable, not sure about the quality of ADC's. I have seen some complaints of field guys about it not being made for field use.........maybe these are not well founded.

(3) Alesis HD24XR. Not sure about ADC quality, overall quality.

I am probably missing other options...........I can't believe nobody is making a simple box to do this.

For my needs, what equipment would best suit my needs?
Thanks!

[philper]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Well, this thread is a little old, but I'm in the same boat. Maybe somebody can help me.

I want to do some live recording of local bands. Eight tracks would be adequate. I want to record the tracks directly from the mics @ 24-bit/88.2 kHz, and simultaneously have the inputs linked to some analog Outs which could go to the club board/PA.

So basically all I need is a box with 8 quality ADC's and digital recording capability (plus a a direct link from inputs to analog outputs).

Separately, I would shoot video with my Canon SX40HS (or get a camcorder, if the Canon camera doesn't provide sufficient video quality).

At home, I would transfer the digital tracks to my Apple Pro 8-Core 2.4, mix in Pro Tools HD Native, and then sync up the video and stereo audio mix.

I've looked at:
(1) Radar V Nyquist. Unfortunately, it is outside my budget (this work will be my "donation" to local bands, I won't get paid for it). I would be buying 24 ADC's and 24 DAC's and I only really need 8 ADC's. Maybe I could swing a used one, but I would need to be confident it is much superior to my other options......is it?

(2) JoeCo Blackbox BBR1B. The price is doable, not sure about the quality of ADC's. I have seen some complaints of field guys about it not being made for field use.........maybe these are not well founded.

(3) Alesis HD24XR. Not sure about ADC quality, overall quality.

I am probably missing other options...........I can't believe nobody is making a simple box to do this.

For my needs, what equipment would best suit my needs?
Thanks!

HD24 is most popular, would do what you want, can be found pretty cheap these days. JoeCo is very small, also sounds good, but you might want the pricier balanced i/o version. Neither of these have any input level control at all--is that ok for your app?

phil p

[NorseHorse]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Well, this thread is a little old, but I'm in the same boat. Maybe somebody can help me.

I want to do some live recording of local bands. Eight tracks would be adequate. I want to record the tracks directly from the mics @ 24-bit/88.2 kHz, and simultaneously have the inputs linked to some analog Outs which could go to the club board/PA.

Eight tracks...

Have you considered a Zoom R16 to dip your feet in the water? R16

I wouldn't necessarily run it to the PA, but it's great for making a simultaneous stereo mix.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by philper

HD24 is most popular, would do what you want, can be found pretty cheap these days. JoeCo is very small, also sounds good, but you might want the pricier balanced i/o version. Neither of these have any input level control at all--is that ok for your app?

phil p

I think I'd have spring for the HD24XR, to get the higher sample rate I want.

Yes, I think the balanced version JoeCo is what I'd want.

I have mixed and tracked in the studio for a long time, but never recorded in the field, so I have to think about the input level control question. The club board will be used for adjusting the levels for the PA and I was intending to put the recorder in parallel with the board, if the recorder has the routing to let me sends the inputs out to the board........I know the JoeCo does, because the description says "the BBR1B loops the inputs directly to the outputs via relays". I will still need to buy a rack of eight preamps to go in front of the recorder, so I think this would handle the level control............unless I've confused myself.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Eight tracks...

Have you considered a Zoom R16 to dip your feet in the water? R16

I wouldn't necessarily run it to the PA, but it's great for making a simultaneous stereo mix.

I looked at it, but I was concerned that the A/D converters would be poor quality at this price point. I could be wrong, just my assumption. I am accustomed to using Lavry converters, and I would like good audio quality. Any comments of converter quality would be appreciated.

[Corran]

The JoeCo I believe will work as an insert, taking the output from the board and sending it back through the inserts, but there are a couple possible issues:

Firstly, the FOH mixing guy may crank the preamps to insane levels and clip your recording. I've seen this dozens of times. If he's actually not doing this and hopefully willing to work with you on this it's not a problem but I rarely have had that luxury.

Second, if you take the inserts the FOH might be ticked because he wanted to run effects on those. Then you're screwed.

Now if the board has direct outs you can just use those, but then you've still got the first problem. Technically the best way to do this is use splits from the mics to your own rack of preamps, but then you've got all that extra baggage (if that matters to you). Nice active splits are also expensive.

I use the HD24XR like this occasionally. It's a wonderful box (even the normal HD24) with AD converters on par with some much higher-end gear. Christian's suggestion of the Zoom is another possibility (it also has its own preamps I think) but you'll have to research that.

An HD24 with a couple of decent 8-channel rack preamps (like say, the Studio Projects 828) plus some okay splits should get you 16 channels and all be fairly compact and not set you back more than about $2500 used?

[strdsk]

I'm selling my Tascam MX2424 for under $1k and it does exactly what you're looking to do. PM me if you're interested. Best...JD!

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Corran

The JoeCo I believe will work as an insert, taking the output from the board and sending it back through the inserts, but there are a couple possible issues:

Firstly, the FOH mixing guy may crank the preamps to insane levels and clip your recording. I've seen this dozens of times. If he's actually not doing this and hopefully willing to work with you on this it's not a problem but I rarely have had that luxury.

Second, if you take the inserts the FOH might be ticked because he wanted to run effects on those. Then you're screwed.

Now if the board has direct outs you can just use those, but then you've still got the first problem. Technically the best way to do this is use splits from the mics to your own rack of preamps, but then you've got all that extra baggage (if that matters to you). Nice active splits are also expensive.

I use the HD24XR like this occasionally. It's a wonderful box (even the normal HD24) with AD converters on par with some much higher-end gear. Christian's suggestion of the Zoom is another possibility (it also has its own preamps I think) but you'll have to research that.

An HD24 with a couple of decent 8-channel rack preamps (like say, the Studio Projects 828) plus some okay splits should get you 16 channels and all be fairly compact and not set you back more than about $2500 used?

Yes, I am with you 100% on the problems of coming off the board.....not worth the hassle. I absolutely don't want to be dependent on the board preamps or on the good sense of the mixing guy..........plus the quality of the board/pres in some of the clubs are pretty bad. So, I want to set up in parallel, as you said, either with active splitters or from the recorder (as the JoeCo is set up to do). The splitters are probably simpler, since the JoeCo approach means the signals would go through my pres before going to the board (and normally into the board pres).

I want to record at 88.2kHz, so I'll have to pay more for the HD24XR. The Alesis units are certainly more common than the JoeCo units, so I am leaning that way right now.

Thanks for the suggestion on the 828.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Corran

An HD24 with a couple of decent 8-channel rack preamps (like say, the Studio Projects 828) plus some okay splits should get you 16 channels and all be fairly compact and not set you back more than about $2500 used?

BTW, do you have a suggestion for a brand of active splitter that isn't so expensive, yet still decent quality?

[The Byre]

Allen & Heath are rumoured to be bringing out a new 16-track recorder that will cost less than $600 and put the recordings onto a memory stick. Then there is always the JoCo Black Box.