grand piano, but NOT jazz or classical (any advice?)

[cleantone]

So I have experience recording "baby" grand piano's but it's been all jazz or classical live performances. Tomorrow I'm recording a duo. Upright bass and piano with fem. vocals from the pianist.

We are going to be using a local college's grand piano and recital room. It's getting tuned an hour before the session, or the load in rather. I had thought we were doing sort of jazz meets pop or something. I guess it is more pop with no jazz. I have limited equiptment. My best mics that I intend to use would be Neumann U87, KM184 (2), KMS105, and Earthworks TC30K (2). I'm sort of planning on the KMS105 for the live vocal takes, the U87 on the bass and probably running two stereo pairs for the piano, ortf TC30K, and maybe xy'ed maybe ortf KM184's. These will be for options and not all four mixed down. I'm much more confident with an open classical sound than I am with the pop. I also have not recorded an actual grand. Any input? Suggestions? Should I use the U87 in the piano, or on the piano and dub the bass parts. I'm also mildly concerned because it went from trying to do 5 songs to possibly ELEVEN!!! But of course "they wont need more than one take"

ALL input would be great. Thanks so much!!!

Oh, by the way she mentioned Ronnie Spector. I haven't heard any Ronnie Spector solo piano though, only the older 60's stuff. Oh and Stevie Wonder too. But I can only think of clav and such with Stevie.

[PlugHead]

IMO,

For non-jazz style, and with a grand, you might have to get in closer, near the hammers for the definition and strike tone. Often an upright (of quality) records better for 'pop' sounds than a grand, as the low end will need to be carved away, especially with an acoustic bass playing the bottom register...

I'd try the KM184's in XY or spaced pr first, with a possibility of using the U87 as a solid 'centre' mic for meat on the piano: you might be able to get away with less bleed using these cardioid mics, and yes - try the 105 as the vocal - I think it'd be better starting this way, and using the U87 if the 105 isn't cutting it. Bass often records well with omni's, and I think the TC30k would be good, moreso on the bass because you can get in really close with no penalty for proximity. Also, they (TC30k's) are a bit noisy for my liking, and tho I've used them on piano before, I don't like their inherent self-noise, esp. on quiet piano passages, but - you did say it was more a 'pop' vein so, this might be the right thing for the recording too...

IME, TC30k's work best for pop piano in close to the hammers, and check phase if you're doing anything adventurous - getting the piano 'distinct' sounding will be the challenge, and the more mics you bring in will more than likely add more ambience, and less clarity. A solid 'centre' - either with the U87, or the Neumann KM184's would be my objective in this situation. Omni's on piano will often tend to smear the clarity, esp. when in spaced stereo.

There is no right and wrong, just what works. I hope you have good monitoring for playback, because that is almost always the toughest thing in piano remotes. Make sure you have enough time to go through a couple of possibilities, and if you can accurately monitor the recording, base your decisions on that. There is nothing worse than rushing through a remote, and finding out that the piano is recorded poorly (this is from my own personal hellish experiences...)

All the best, and let us know how it turns out!

[cleantone]

Thanks alot. That was pretty much "my other plan" for selection. I'm starting to think it makes sense too. Any advice about vocal bleed into the piano mics for live takes? Maybe I will have to have her overdub all vocals? She has some harmony parts and whatnot but maybe it would be good to dub all the vocal parts.

I hear you about monitoring. I am unfortunatly gonna have to lug my nearfields as I have not yet picked up any small afforda/portablie monitors. Blech! I'll use cans to monitor takes but for playback will have the nears... Not looking forward to it for some reason. Gotta change that!

[20to20]

I often use a matched pair of EarthWorks
(used to use TC30k's, but now have QTC30s)
positioned perpendicularly to the soundboard down into
the (3"-4"diam.) holes that were cast in the iron frame...

By placing the mics extremely close to the
soundboard (1/16"-1/8"), you can minimize bleed
from other sound sources, as well as the mics' self-noise
and any noise from the pre (cuz you can turn it way down)...

The omnis present no proximity effect, of course,
so you can get very close with no bass boost...

After experimenting with which two to mic, we ended
up using the middle holes (my Steinway has four holes)...

It won't be possible to close the piano lid completely,
but you can go half-stick (or prop it open enough with
foam blocks, etc.) and then throw a packing blanket
over the gap to further minimize any bleed...

You may be pleasantly surprised by the sound picked up this
way, even by the stereo spread when panning the two tracks...

[PlugHead]

Good suggestions too Bob - nice to see you here!

Never only one way to getting great piano sounds. I frequently find them tricky instruments, but still love them. Give me a set of good hands on real keys everytime - regardless of the hassles recording'em.

regards,

[Remoteness]

[SNR]

I used to use a pair of AKG C12's about 8ft away and 8 feet up
through a GML pre amp but more recently I have been finding
2 x AKG D660s with a spirit folio notepad has been providing the
depth, space and tonal accuracy I am looking for. Often I will blend in an
RE 20 which I place 1 foof under the piano just to add a little lows
although do be surre to roll off the top end on this mic to ensure no
HF Phase cancelling occurs

All the best