Band in a great room, how to get the best leakage?

[alexvdbroek]

I am recording a band in an awesome space soon and have some questions about it.

The space is an old chapel with a high vaulted ceiling and carpeted floors apart from the stage which isn't far off the ground. (see pic - the chairs can be moved)

The band has - singer who plays piano, drummer, bass, organ

Now I will most likely have the drums, bass and organ (Nord Stage) on the carpet facing the stage to try and get a good band vibe.

Now the questions.
1. I know there will be some leakage (I want leakage but good leakage), especially from the vocalist at the piano, what is the best way to ensure that they are in phase (the piano mics and vocal mic). I realize the vocal volume in the piano mics will be low but I want a rich a sound as possible.

This will happen for the bass, drums and organ too. But on a lesser level.

2. I will be going DI with the organ, should I pipe a bit of the organ sound into the room (for performance vibe) so it can be picked up lightly by other mics? (in this case I will use a DI box)

Thanks
A.

[edva]

Generally it is better to have the players close together, so the bleed doesn't sound distant, especially in such a reverberant space.
One thing you can do at the piano is flip phase on the vocal mic, and listen to see if it improves the sound or not.
I would be very tempted to have some organ sound in the room with everything else.
Use hi-pass and lo-pass as needed also.
Good luck. Sounds like a fun session!

[ray_subsonic]

Alex,

What a phenomenal space to record in !!

[alexvdbroek]

Yeah it is! That's why I am trying to make sure I don't stuff it up! I am looking for those old school same room tips.

Alex

[Remoteness]

I'm not sure how helpful this post will be, but for me...

The best way to capture that "good" leakage is to start with the idea that you want no leakage.

Positioning the instruments in relationship to each other while maintaining the proper mic placement is key.

Listening to each mic individually while the musicians are playing is a great way to find your "best" leakage possibilities. At that point you can decide if you need to place a baffle or five in strategic positions or move a mic or an instrument closer or farther away and such.

I love this challenge; I transcend in this area, if I do say so myself;-)

[alexvdbroek]

Well that was rather a cryptic message.
Do you mean that by listening to the seperate mics I will be able to hear how much leakage there is? And if it sounds good? (which is something I was planning to do of course)

I am not going to use any baffles at all.
A.

[Remoteness]

I smell some wood burning...

I believe that if you work for the answer you will remember it a lot better...

Yes, by listening to the separate mics you will indeed be able to listen to how much good (or bad) leakage there is. If something does not sound right have someone move the mic or speaker or instrument until you find the right sound balance between the source and the leakage.

If you're not using physical gobos consider using those 'virtual gobos' I'm always referring to.

Originally Posted by alexvdbroek

Well that was rather a cryptic message.
Do you mean that by listening to the seperate mics I will be able to hear how much leakage there is? And if it sounds good? (which is something I was planning to do of course)

I am not going to use any baffles at all.
A.

[alexvdbroek]

Thanks for your help. IU have already thought about this ALOT before though. So just trying to pick up anything extra.

Another thing about the leakage that I'm not sure about is the phasing. I know phasing isn't as much of an issue when the leakage is quiet. But I want to get a really rich sound here.

A.

[Remoteness]

Consider listen (to things) in mono when adjusting the mics and instruments.
I (almost) always listen in mono when I work on my balances.

Matter of fact, I usually place a single (mono) speaker about four to six feet behind me pointed towards the back of my head when I want to listen to an alternative speaker system...

I find it much more useful than listening to a second stereo source,
I've been using this technique since the mid 80s.

It works very well for me; take a listen (in mono) to anything I've done to hear exactly what I'm talking about. Mono compatibility is a big part of my sound and very important to me when capturing and/or mixing sound.

Check it out if you're not certain of its potential.

Originally Posted by alexvdbroek

Thanks for your help. IU have already thought about this ALOT before though. So just trying to pick up anything extra.

Another thing about the leakage that I'm not sure about is the phasing. I know phasing isn't as much of an issue when the leakage is quiet. But I want to get a really rich sound here.

A.

[alexvdbroek]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Consider listen (to things) in mono when adjusting the mics and instruments.

Thanks, thats a great tip.
Fingers crossed for the project!

A.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I'm not sure how helpful this post will be, but for me...

The best way to capture that "good" leakage is to start with the idea that you want no leakage.

Positioning the instruments in relationship to each other while maintaining the proper mic placement is key.

Listening to each mic individually while the musicians are playing is a great way to find your "best" leakage possibilities. At that point you can decide if you need to place a baffle or five in strategic positions or move a mic or an instrument closer or farther away and such.

I love this challenge; I transcend in this area, if I do say so myself;-)

+1 thumbsup


When I read the first post in the thread, this was exactly what I was going to post, Remoteness beat me to it.

Best Leakage is no leakage!

Good leakage = lucky escape!

Freat as this space might be, I suspect drums will not benefit.

Regards


Roland

[just.sounds]

Watch some interviews with al schmitt .
You are not alone!

Think about using your mikes a bit off axis in certain places. It is better to have some brightness in the room tone, you can't eq that seperatly.

[alexvdbroek]

Originally Posted by Roland

+1 thumbsup

Best Leakage is no leakage!

Good leakage = lucky escape!

Roland

I took the advice to be slightly metaphorical, and to allow a different type of thinking when setting things up...
But it could be either way! It can be hard to tell with just text.

Thanks just.sounds. I will check that out. any links? Yes off-axis could be useful here.

A.

[Remoteness]

It's a little bit of both with a lean on a different mindset when placing your instruments and microphones.

Originally Posted by alexvdbroek

I took the advice to be slightly metaphorical, and to allow a different type of thinking when setting things up...<snip>

[alexvdbroek]

So most of you would say that I shouldn't pipe any organ sound into the room at all then?

It would be better for the players, but that sound will squeak into most mics...

A.

[Remoteness]

How about monitoring all your other mics while piping in some organ and adjust accordingly?

You may be able to get the organ loud enough; may not, but IMO it's worth a try.

Originally Posted by alexvdbroek

So most of you would say that I shouldn't pipe any organ sound into the room at all then?

It would be better for the players, but that sound will squeak into most mics...

A.

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by alexvdbroek

Well that was rather a cryptic message.
Do you mean that by listening to the seperate mics I will be able to hear how much leakage there is? And if it sounds good? (which is something I was planning to do of course)

I am not going to use any baffles at all.
A.

hey...

i recorded a pretty large ensemble (18 people) containing many strings, a drummer, a few horns, and acoustic guitar in a nice ambient church
setting. Steve pretty well said it best...but i might add a thing or two:

1. consider throwing something over or around...well especially over
the drummer. you will be stunned at how much drum leakage you'll get
into everything. just a curtain or a blanket helped me. i'll attach a picture
so you can see the "drum manger" we made.

2. i second the idea of sitting pretty close to each other. we found out
that if we had the piano player too far away, she heard the rest of
the band "late"...must be the abundance of reflections and such smearing
the timing if one gets too far away from the other people.

3. if you can...and this is a big "if"...see if you can set up the night before
or something. we found that the first time we tried it, our musicians
got fairly bored, burned out, and fatigued while we were getting sounds...'cause as you can imagine, this took some experimentation.

good luck,
marty.

[alexvdbroek]

Thanks for the tips Marty. I like the idea of making sure the lid 'protects' the inside of the piano from the drums too.

Yeah it is live in there. It will be hard with the drums.
I will see what options I have...