classical music edits

[Kees de Visser]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

nobody getting particularly rich in the process.

Sadly enough very often the number of edits in contemporary music cd's outnumbers the amount of sold cd's.
Another point that I haven't read here is that most consumers don't seem to notice edits, even what "we" editors consider very bad ones. Sometimes one wonders if being a perfectionist in editing really pays off.

Here's another anecdote for your paper:
Several years ago I was asked to make a correction in a major company re-issue cd of a Brahms symphony. A customer had written a letter that half a bar was missing. He turned out to be right, so it was corrected and a new version of the cd was made. However, this was an old analog recording that had been on the market for over 15 years and had been highly acclaimed by the critics. On top of that no-one had noticed the mistake: the producer, conductor, quality-check dept. of the company, critics etc. So far for the importance of good editing :-)

[rumleymusic]

Several years ago I was asked to make a correction in a major company re-issue cd of a Brahms symphony. A customer had written a letter that half a bar was missing. He turned out to be right, so it was corrected and a new version of the cd was made. However, this was an old analog recording that had been on the market for over 15 years and had been highly acclaimed by the critics. On top of that no-one had noticed the mistake: the producer, conductor, quality-check dept. of the company, critics etc. So far for the importance of good editing :-)

Thats a good one.

Just a few days ago, a colleague of mine at a classical radio station called me in to his office when he was reviewing a few CD's for possible air play. He heard something funny on one of the disks, (a Sony branded recording of a rather popular tenor). Sure enough, there was a blatant bad edit that sounded like the music skipped half a beat. I couldn't believe no one caught the mistake. I have never heard that from a major label before.

[mpdonahue]

WRT missing beats, bars, etc..
This happens far more often than most would probably believe. There are several famous records that nobody has ever noticed that there are missing or duplicated bars.
One famous recording by a major american orchestra that won a Grammy was found to have a missing measure by the conductor almost 3 years after the fact.
He was going to conduct the piece in Europe and listened to the disc on the plane ride over. Because he conducted from memory and didn't use a score, during the first performance, he was conducting and all of a sudden, when the missing bar went by, in his mind the orchestra was a bar behind.
After the concert he got out his score and found the missing measure, called the record company and told them about the problem. The record company called us and we fixed the master. On the next pressing, the new master was inserted and nobody has ever noticed.
Goes to show that nobody is infallible. With any luck, the longer you do it, the less often it happens.

All the best,
-mark

[rhizomeman]

Anyone willing to name the exact recordings being referred to?

"a Sony branded recording of a rather popular tenor"

"a major american orchestra that won a Grammy was found to have a missing measure"

"a major company re-issue cd of a Brahms symphony"

Keep them coming - this is great stuff!

[mpdonahue]

Originally Posted by rhizomeman

Anyone willing to name the exact recordings being referred to?

"a Sony branded recording of a rather popular tenor"

"a major american orchestra that won a Grammy was found to have a missing measure"

"a major company re-issue cd of a Brahms symphony"

Keep them coming - this is great stuff!

Not if we ever want to work again......

All the best,
-mark

[Ozpeter]

I have a recording of a trumpet concerto where the harpsichord continuo is a bit to the left of centre and the trumpet a bit to the right - but only for a few bars... they are the other way round for the rest of it. I'd happily name names but first I'd have to find the right CD and check all through it for the right place.

[Nobilmente]

One particular conductor who I recorded with on quite a number of occasions, and whose performances are now some of the most musical to listen to, would ask me - "how was it?" - following a long take. When I replied that there were no wrong notes etc., but that the piece hadn't worked (musically) he did not need any further explanation and just said, "leave it to me." There would follow a five or ten minute talk to the players about this and that, then straight away another complete take, which was, more or less, the way it would end up on the disc, with all the right notes etc., and a musical performance.

This particular conductor understood the value of musical performance, and not just right notes. One particular recording I did with him, eventually had the odd split/wrong note left in, and which he was happy to leave there because did not want to spoil the musical performance he felt had been achieved - my kind of musician that.

He respected and valued my opinion whenever he asked for it, and he was respectful to the players too, and they respected him, all good stuff. I wish there were more like that, and less coated with egoism.

Then there are other recordings where I've had to "construct" the piece from many takes, and not just for musical considerations.

Perhaps needless to say, the first conductor was very experienced and getting on in years, and had just got used to doing it that way before the advent of 'cut and paste' and all the other digital "joys".

He was also great to chat to over a meal afterwards.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

I have a recording of a trumpet concerto where the harpsichord continuo is a bit to the left of centre and the trumpet a bit to the right - but only for a few bars... they are the other way round for the rest of it. I'd happily name names but first I'd have to find the right CD and check all through it for the right place.

I have recordings where the whole ensemble is back to front Peter!! Well, left to right back to front! And regularly, even now, (as in weekly) there is a broadcast on the BBC which is wrong in this respect too.

I have no idea why someone does not spot it, there are engineers hearing it, and there are producers & presenters who are musicians running this particular programme, but still it persists. Some weeks it is the right way around, then other weeks it all ass about face again. It is not a classical programme but tending to the lighter side.

To be frank, it hits you in the face like a wet Haddock from the moment you hear it.

Better not mention names in this instance perhaps!

I have also heard a recording of Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor where the first three notes were omitted from the disc!!

[Richard Black]

In case the OP is still following this thread - I have done some very 'naughty' stuff indeed to classical recordings - things the reviewers and public will assume haven't been done because they 'can't' be. Correcting poor intonation (and occasionally wrong notes), removing split notes, inserting missing notes, all sorts of stuff - this is all on 2-track masters mind you, not multi-track. The trick I'm proudest of is correcting out-of-tune pianos. It's a bit painful so only for use in dire emergency but it was fun to develop.

Most classical artists find it preferable to have a 'producer', who may simply be a colleague whose opinion they trust, or it may be the same person as the engineer (many classical engineers are actually musicians with technical knowledge). I have personally worked as musician, producer and engineer - all three separately and in every possible combination. There are pros and cons of every arrangement. Last major recording I took part in as pianist, my wife (also a pianist) produced. The skill set for producing is much the same as teaching or coaching, really.

[Gaston69]

Originally Posted by The Byre

That reminds me of a story!

Many many years ago and in a land far, far away (Germany) I got my very first remote / location recording gig -

There were two of us: D (sorry, no names) and myself. D was the boss because he had the VW bus to carry our kit. The kit was a couple of Sennheiser 441s, some home-made microphone pre-amps and a Studer reel-to-reel (A60 I think). We got the gig through a local music shop to record a pianist in his piano salon somewhere on a Sunday.

D was knocking off some girl called Maria at the time. She was rather small and fat - well, to be honest, she was very small and very fat and for some reason he wanted to take Maria (I annoyed him by calling her ‘Stumpy’) with us to the gig to impress her. She had very short hair and she was so, well, how shall I put this - ‘backstage’ - that talking to her was like drawing teeth. But D insisted on dragging this girl around with us because he claimed she gave the best BJs known to man. (He was recovering from being jilted by a highly intellectual zoologist with large breasts called Petra!)

The pianist-come-salon-owner was an imperious man with a beaky nose who made it quite clear that he did not suffer fools gladly. He gave us the impression that having us as his recording team meant he had definitely drawn the short straw. One look from the beaky-nosed pianist was enough to persuade D that ‘Stumpy’ had to stay in the VW bus.

D could not read music, so I got the job of following the score. The drill was that if the pianist was not satisfied with what he had played, he would stop and play it again. I would then have to write down on the score exactly where on the tape this had happened so that we stood a fighting chance of finding the spot and cutting out the unwanted bit. Remember this was many years ago and editing involved razor blades and bits of sticky tape. There was no ‘undo’ button on a razor blade, so making a mistake was just not an option.

There was just the three of us (not counting Stumpy in the VW bus), the beaky-nosed pianist, myself and D. The little equipment we had was placed on a table about five yards from the pianist. The imperious pianist with the nose limbered up with some exercises and scales on a magnificent Steinway that had been set up in the middle of the room for the occasion. A test drive was called for and we listened on headphones to ensure that all was well and that the recording was clean, undistorted and as far as possible free from background noise. The idea was that we would edit that tape and send it and not a copy to the mastering and pressing plant and therefore get as clean a recording as possible.

The imperious pianist with the nose listened to what we had recorded on the test drive and seemed satisfied. But he still looked at us with a kind of ‘sniffy’ air: jeans, T-shirts and long hair, we were just a bit too rock and roll for his liking.

"You can, er, read music?" he asked me, looking me up and down.

"Oh yes!" I assured him. "And I do know the piece."

"Hmmm!" he said in a very marked sort of way.

So off we went. The pianist played and I followed the score. The first less-than-perfect passage came and he stopped, raised his eyebrows, closed his eyes and did it again. No problems there. I marked the score ‘05:32’ (or whatever time it was) and we pushed on.

D now had nothing to do, so he silently sneaked off to the VW bus and the welcoming arms of voluptuous Maria. But it was cold outside and Maria had been complaining, so he sneaked her silently into the salon. We were more or less behind the pianist, so as long as we were completely quiet, he could see what we were up to. D took Maria into a mop-and-bucket room that was right behind us and very silently closed the door. Where he stood the voluptuous Maria on an upturned bucket against the door to have sex. This, he had reasoned, would protect them from someone coming in unexpectedly and literally catching him with his pants down.

Then it happened. All this creeping about had distracted me and I managed to loose my place. The pianist stopped and played a bit again. I wrote the time down, but had no idea where it was supposed to be. In desperation I thumbed through the sheets looking for the passage, trying to find out where we were.

The music was spread out flat across the piano, so, very, very quietly, I tried standing on the table to see if I could which sheet he was reading from. It was no good, it was too far away and I could not see the music. Then I had a bright idea, Petra’s binoculars were still in the bus. I sneaked out to get them and returned to silently remount the table.

I was standing on the table, looking at the top of the piano through a pair of binoculars, when Maria’s backside, in a moment of extreme sexual ecstasy, pushed the door handle down and with a scream, she fell off her bucket and into the room.

The pianist looked up sharply to see me standing on the table, looking at him through a pair of binoculars. A naked girl was lying on the floor behind me with her legs in the air and in the doorway of the-mop-and-bucket room, stood D with his trousers round his ankles.

I would love to tell you that everything ended in hilarity and disaster, but the pianist saw the funny side. He looked at us for a while, smiling. Once I had got down off the piano, Maria had put her clothes back on and D had pulled up his trousers, he just said, "Some things, Gentlemen, are just very hard to explain."

He made us start from the beginning again, Maria went off somewhere and as it turned out, hitched hiked home (which is how she met D in the first place) and we had to keep going until about ten at night.

Yes, we did get paid on delivery of the finished tape.

The sequel was that two weeks later we were sitting in the workshop that was attached to the studio and D went to lavatory. I heard a certain about of shouting and the words "Oh dear God!"

He returned to the workshop, red in the face and uttered the classic line (later to be immortalised by Frank Zappa):

"Why does it hurt when I pee?"

Lovely Story, we should have more like those here on GS

[Gaston69]

Originally Posted by Plush

There are many reasons that some projects go into the realm of hundreds of edits. These rarely include not being able to play since the artiste is usually outstanding at playing their instrument.

Some reasons include insecurity, technological compusion (where the artiste demands more edits because they know it is possible), noises, interpretation differences or various neurotic tendencies.

In my opinion light editing is always part of the job of the producer / engineer.

The more edits, the more likely that the project can be considered a failure.

I don't allow the client to push me to over edit. I make them replay it at the original session.

Agree