Choir + Orchestra recording advice needed

[RaGe]

I will be recording a 40 piece choir along with a 20 piece orchestra made of strings and Russian instruments (balalaika, domra etc ...) in a very nice sounding church (so I was told).

The choir will be on raiser with the orchestra in front and there will be soloists.
For budget reasons (I am doing this for free as a learning experience) I am limited in mics choice. Being away from home the only mic I brought here is a Geffel m930 and I have the option of renting the following:

Pair of KM184
Pair of 414B-XL II
Pair of AT33
Pair of TLM103
Beyer 160

I was thinking of the stereo pair above the conductor's head (A-B, coincident, blumlein?) and the m930 as a spot mic for the soloists. Of course this is a minimal approach but bear in mind that there's no budget to play with.

The mic pres are Phoenix Audio DRS2 and EMU 1616M.

So how do you guys feel about my plan?

Regis

[Jim vanBergen]

Can you add outriggers? If the conductor is in front of the choir, and the orch is behind them, you may want or need something to get an isolated orch sound without the choir in the way...unless you really want the minimalist 3-mic approach. I would usually go omni in front of the conductor as you will want to reduce any noise he might generate...be prepared to move forward into the choir if he is flipping pages of a score.

Basic plan sounds fine. Are you mixing live to 2?

[RaGe]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

Can you add outriggers? If the conductor is in front of the choir, and the orch is behind them, you may want or need something to get an isolated orch sound without the choir in the way...unless you really want the minimalist 3-mic approach. I would usually go omni in front of the conductor as you will want to reduce any noise he might generate...be prepared to move forward into the choir if he is flipping pages of a score.

Basic plan sounds fine. Are you mixing live to 2?

Jim,

Not really on the outriggers as I am trying to remain as non-intrusive as possible. Did you mean cardioid in front of the conductor?

I just received more details on the perfromance. There will not be any vocal soloist so I was thinking of going with a "large decca tree" as such:

- AKG 414 on left on ALTO section
- M930 in the middle on TENOR section
- AKG 414 on the right on the SOPRANO section

With the orchestra in front of the choir I'm going for a global sound, although I will be multitracking.

Thanks for your reply.

Regis

[joelpatterson]

I have lotsa luck with an ORTF right up about three feet over the conductor's head, and then I would advise micing like you are facing a gigantic drumkit--two mics well off to the side, and then two mics behind everyone onstage.


And yeah, for the soloists, you really ought to have something not more than about ten feet away, tops.

Not being "instrusive" is really tough in these cases. By the time the sound makes its way out to mics in the hall, it's really mushy and swarmy.

[RaGe]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I have lotsa luck with an ORTF right up about three feet over the conductor's head, and then I would advise micing like you are facing a gigantic drumkit--two mics well off to the side, and then two mics behind everyone onstage.


And yeah, for the soloists, you really ought to have something not more than about ten feet away, tops.

Not being "instrusive" is really tough in these cases. By the time the sound makes its way out to mics in the hall, it's really mushy and swarmy.

Joel, thanks for the advice. But like I said I am in a tight/no budget situation

The thing is that I won't have much time to try different setups although I plan to try both ORTF and a 3-mic setup. What I'd like to know in advance is wether it is worth spending time trying the pseudo Decca tree I talked about in my previous post, 2 414s in omni and a gefell m930 (cardioid) as the center mic.
Any advice still much appreciated thumbsup

[joelpatterson]

Well... I do a bit of this stuff, showing up in strange halls with about a half an hour to get set up and then get out of the way. I always wondered about the whole Decca Tree approach, until I realized that a real Decca Tree is like the size of a surfboard. So I put together a custom ORTF holder with a 12" bar of angle-aluminum and two Oktava 012's, and it sits high atop a pole hanging from a shockmount. It's not invisible, but it's just one slender pole.

So in a couple of minutes, I can get it up in the air, string the XLR's over to my Rolling Rack, and I'm good to go--if there was some reason I couldn't set up anything else, this would do the job. I'd think that if your Tree was somehow all put together and you could just carry it in, boom, it's up, the crowd would be mighty impressed with your preparation and thoroughness. You probably have some idea of how the levels ought to be set, and if you didn't I would guess, oh, at around 7 on the dial (out of 10)? If there's no sound check, I just listen through the mics and hike the gain until the audience murmuring sounds like a nice background murmur. And sit there poised with my fingers on the dials in case the first sound is some massive orchestra hit.

Someday I'll try to attach a pic of my Rolling Rack: Stanley toolchest on wheels with an Alesis HD-24, pres and compressors, Allen & Heath Mixwizard for monitoring... great to have everything all plugged in from the start.

[John Brook]

Regis - some thoughts. I do a lot of this for schools and youth orchestras.

Don't worry about being inconspicuous. If I need to, I put a big Atlas boom right behind the conductor, and XY (the Neumanns would be good for this). You'll get what the conductor hears, and guess what? The conductor generally balances the sound for his/her ears.

If I can, I suspend a stereo mike, or XY pair, but not too much higher nor further back than I would be if I were using the mike stand.

I've got a fabulous recording of the Verdi Requiem this way, which runs circles around 99% of the releases by the big boys.

Remember, Mercury Records made hundreds of top notch commercial stereo recordings using the single point approach.

IMHO, most engineers using spot mikes over emphasize the soloists by way too much. It's human nature.

Good luck.

John

[Roland]

The famous Mercury recordings were made with a three mic spaced array recorded to a three track film recorder not a stereo pair.

In this case you should be ok with a pair above the conductor. I would however put up mics for the chorus. Depending on how good they are (or not) without them you could be struggling. Ideally four matched mics would be best, but looking at your list I would go for a cardioid pair in the centre, (ortf, XY, whatever you like) and another pair as outriggers. If you use only a pair to "spot" the choir you could end up with them sounding like 20 or less, not the 40 you have.

Having looked at your list, I'd be using the AKG's for the orchestra, and the TLM103,s and KM84 for the choir, but thats my own personal choice.

Regards


Roland

[RaGe]

guys this is all great advice! wise words from John too.
i can see how everyone's approach is different and not necessarily better than the other.
having said that i think it'd be wiser not to start experimenting with a decca tree seeing how i won't have much time to set up, which is really limiting my fun.
so the new alternate option would be:

XY coincident pair of LDs above conductor's head aiming at the orchestra- gving me a strong center
ORTF pair of SDs (would AB make more sense here?) on the choir - for more stereo effect

anyone please feel free to tell me this sucks or not, and why.

in any case i'm gonna have a great time (keeping fingers crossed and asking for more advice on GS )

Regis

[RaGe]

Originally Posted by Roland

In this case you should be ok with a pair above the conductor. I would however put up mics for the chorus. Depending on how good they are (or not) without them you could be struggling. Ideally four matched mics would be best, but looking at your list I would go for a cardioid pair in the centre, (ortf, XY, whatever you like) and another pair as outriggers. If you use only a pair to "spot" the choir you could end up with them sounding like 20 or less, not the 40 you have.

Roland

How do you feel about the "orchestra XY pair" picking up some of the choir in the setup above? Sure it won't sound the same as having 2 pairs on the choir but I can't have all the toys to play with ...

[Roland]

Originally Posted by RaGe

How do you feel about the "orchestra XY pair" picking up some of the choir in the setup above? Sure it won't sound the same as having 2 pairs on the choir but I can't have all the toys to play with ...

The head mics (those above the conductor) will pick up your main balance, the choir mics are just for reinforcement, however if you use just a pair as the spots the choir (ortf I think you said you had decided on) you will gain presence on only the imediate singers close to this set up, this is why the outriggers here are more important. If you picture it in your mind the choir mics are/should be closer to the choir than the head mics are to the orchestra thus the danger becomes too much of a localised pick-up on the choir. This could lead to a poor choir balance. Outriggers on the orchestra may/may not be a nice idea, but here they should be less critical (only 20 people to cover its a relatively small ensemble.

If you only have 4 channels of pre's, I would rent the six mic's I suggested and a cheap (soundcraft, mackie etc) desk. Pre's make very small differences to the sound, far less than mic choice/placement and acoustics.

Thats my thoughts, whatever you decide, good luck and I'd be interested to hear a sample if you could post it here after the session.

Regards


Roland

[RaGe]

The concert is in 2 days, I will post samples for sure.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, outriggers= a pair of mics on each side of the ensemble (for a total of 4)?
I won't be able to have 6 mics so I'll do my best with what I have at my disposal.
Thanks all for the great tips.

RaGe

[John Brook]

I am curious about Roland's comment in re: Mercury recordings. I've long since dumpped my 33's, so cannot refer to the liner notes. I thought it was Mercury that made a big deal out of single point recording. Perhaps it was the outfit which recorded the Salt Lake Symphony.

[Roland]

Originally Posted by John Brook

I am curious about Roland's comment in re: Mercury recordings. I've long since dumpped my 33's, so cannot refer to the liner notes. I thought it was Mercury that made a big deal out of single point recording. Perhaps it was the outfit which recorded the Salt Lake Symphony.

Originally the recording's were in mono, using U47's, later this became stereo recorded to a Ampex machine and shortly afterwards a 3 track film recorder.

The recordings have apparently now been transfered to SACD, on CD they sounded good and when taken into account their vintage (Some early 50's) they were remarkable, however it is quite possible to hear their limitations on the CD versions. Possibly the SACD versions have three track versions which may be of interest to some.

For those interested this link goes to the main page, and there are various links on the site to articles about the recording methods. http://www.mercurylivingpresence.com/

Regards


Roland

[RaGe]

The recording went well, I am yet to listen to it with fresh ears since I used a friend's laptop. I will post samples soon.

It was a thrill! Having never done that kind of job before I was a bit anxious and how right was I to be:

1. After I setup my ORTF pair behind the conductor's stand and begin working the vertical angle of the mics, getting a great sound while the orchestra is still rehearsing, out of the blue comes the light technician to let me know how ugly my mics looks like that, and how it will affect the visuals and that the conductor won't be able to salute (sorry i am french, can't find the correct word) the audience ...
I find a pair of Geffel mics a beautiful thing and my mic stand is the thinest before invisible but my humor is not well received and Mr Beam goes find the MD who didn't seem to mind my mics at all. Sure enough both come back to me and all of a sudden my mic stand is not welcome there anymore (Ahh politics).
Mr Beam proposes the idea of hanging my stereo bar from 2 columns with fishing wire/cord/whatever we can find ... At that point I am seriously thinking of packing up and go home but somehow I accept the idea as long as my mics are safe .... Being in love makes you do strange things, esp. being in love with recording.
So up on a ladder goes my new friend Beam with a thick piece of string tied to my stereo bar; in less of 5mn the pair is up and after minor adjustments it looks centered ... only that now I dont have any control over the angle at which the mics are pointing to the orchestra. It isn't bad although a bit further than I'd like, checking with headphones until .... until the percussionist shows up late for rehearsal (or something like that) and starts banging on his toys like a posessed man. OUCH! My ORTF pair is hanging in the air and pointing straight at the russian John Bonham wanabee. Well at this point I can only deal with it, no way to access my mics and the stereo pair i had further out in the hall now has to be brought up front so I can get the front of the orchestra since it gets covered by xylos, bass drums and cymbals. In all I think I had 5 minutes to get the sound because at this point the rehearsal is over ... Great ... So much for fine tuning my placement. But the sound in the cans is pleasant so inch allah, or vaya con dios.

2. Concert starts, I've been recording for 5 minutes ... i am a newbie, I make sure not to miss the downbeat All goes well, still sounds good in the cans .... After 40 minutes I hear a light buzz in one mic ...bzzz... skcrshhhh...... shhhhh....... SILENCE! OK what's going on?!!! Don't panic! U can sweat but don't panic ... A quick touch to the mic preamp channel input gain knob off and back to its position and sound is back, waveform drawing happy ... I don't know what hapenned, maybe my Phoenix Audio DRS2's "channel 1" dind't appreciate travelling across the ocean and/or the cold weather ... Anyways, I lost about 10 seconds on one track ... I'll try to mask it, wish me luck.

I used Audiodesk on a Powerbook, runs fine with the motu828. I'll transfer to Nuendo for editing and mixing.

Wow that's a long post ... It wasnt intended to be. Hope I didn't bore the hell out of you guys ... Guess not if you're still reading lol.

Anyways I realized how important it is to be ready to deal with people and the polictics and dynamics of a group (in this case a church group of old french folks) who don't necessarily like you being there and be diplomatic although you're under pressure. Much learned anyways, that was the point of this exercise.

Cheers,

Regis

[John Brook]

Glad to hear you pulled it off so successfully.

Of course, you did the right thing diplomatically (in re: mike placement). I tend to forget that my physical size gives me many advantages. Looking down at some twerp and saying, with a scowl on my face, "You think they want a crappy sounding recording just because you're dainty sensibilities are offended?"

In the future, if you use contracts, you might consider inserting a clause to the effect that the recording engineer has final say, commensurate with safety codes, over the placement of recording equipment, and that failure to observe that absolves you of all responsibility for poor sound, and payment is due in full, regardless.

John

[Dickens]

Regis...well done!
You made it.
Read like an emotional roller coaster similar to an important first date. From meeting the parents to dropping her off.
You might have done this for free but it sounds like the experience was priceless. Nothing better than a real life experience for an education. thumbsup

[RaGe]

Some roughly edited mp3s:

I was told there would be no solists and sure enough there were: Example 1

With the choir: Example 2

Orchestra by itself: Example 3

I must say I don't like what the mp3 conversion does to the sound

Comments are welcome ...

[Remoteness]

Well done RaGe -- Keep up the good work!

[Roland]

Hi RaGe,

Congratulations! Sounds like it all went off well, you were blessed with a good orchestra. This is a classic example of how great players really do make a difference.

The choir are not special, but I really enjoyed listening to examples 1 and 3 just for the playing.

Regards


Roland

[dizziness]

Originally Posted by RaGe

Some roughly edited mp3s:

I was told there would be no solists and sure enough there were: Example 1

With the choir: Example 2

Orchestra by itself: Example 3

I must say I don't like what the mp3 conversion does to the sound

Comments are welcome ...

This was a single ORTF pair? The balance was decent especially on the first example. ORTF is our friend.

Chris

[ghellquist]

Regis,
great story. This really shows that simple is beautiful. Two mics is all you need most of the time. Obviously the place was decent and the orchestra really good. Hit and miss for the mic placement, but you got it recorded! It sounds good I would say.

Just maybe, I would turn down some bass frequencys a dB or two and just maybe add a little reverb to smooth things together a little bit. (Question of taste).

(Some noises on the solo song part of piece #1?).

Gunnar

[T.RayBullard]

sounds really good man!great work! since we mention ortf...
http://s63.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...S0T4O2NX8Q3851

theres three pieces of mine..hope you enjoy them.

Gefell M930s ORTF and U87s A-B, i meter spread.

[RaGe]

Thank you guys for your comments and encouragements. Most of what you hear comes from the ORTF pair of Gefell M930s. I used the A B pair to reinforce some passages and for greater stereo effect. Like many said, having great players makes the job so much easier, it is a well conducted ensemble of top notch players who's been all over Europe.

Regarding the bass frequencies I elected to leave things flat but some correction would be welcome (again it really depends on what kind of sound you're after).
Same goes for reverb, I didn't add any but now I can see how omnis would help smooth things out a bit ... but as far as audience noise go, wouldn't omnis introduce more problems too? There's already enough coughing and chatter in this recording! I'd be interested to hear how you deal with it.



I had a great time watch ... I mean recording this orchestra

Regis

[sonare]

The interesting thing is that I did not recall you mentioning that this was a baililaika orchestra, and I really enjoyed the sound. The subtleties and tight ensemble tell me these are EXCELLENT musicians.

And I think you should be thankful you were "forced" to hang your pair-- the sound is much more even a little higher and father back than your original plan.

As for bass I found myself wishing for a little more-- just what omnis would give you.

This is VERY enjoyable stuff!

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by BigRay

sounds really good man!great work! since we mention ortf...
http://s63.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...S0T4O2NX8Q3851

theres three pieces of mine..hope you enjoy them.

Gefell M930s ORTF and U87s A-B, i meter spread.

The file is no longer available-- can you put it up again?

Rich