Schoeps MK4 vs. Rode NT5 - the edited version!

[ISedlacek]

Would it not be better either to try these mics for oneself and to share the direct personal experience or to accept and respect an experience and sharing of those who tried ? But not trying the mentioned mics personally and just endlessly doubting and ridiculing other people's experience sounds already very strange to me ...

If you are really interested, why instead of writing all those endless monotonous lines, you just don't borrow Schoeps and Rode and simply try and you will know for yourself ? Isn't it easy ? But are you really interested ?

I have tried in detail quite few low budget SD mics (SE, JZ, Beyer, Sigma, Behringer etc.) and compared them to Schoeps. And there was always very obvious sound quality difference, there were in different quality leagues in terms of capturing the complex natural spectrum of acoustic sources. I would be SO happy if it is not so and they would sound the same good - I would save lot of money. But unfortunately, it is very far from truth ... DPA (which I tried almost all of them) were in quite similar sound league as Schoeps, but I personally prefered the sound "mood" of Schoeps ... (I could not say Schoeps sound "better" than DPA, but I definitely can say that Schoeps sound better than the above mentioned mics - if the aspiration is a complex, natural, detailed sound of a particular acoustic source)

I have not tried Rode NT5 yet, but it would be quite miraculous if for the fraction of price they could match microphones that most professionals in the world consider as one of the very best ... I have no reason to doubt Benjamin Maas, David Spearitt and other respected professionals who used these mics and shared their experience ... But exclaiming: Nonsense ! No value ! Snobism! Wallet ! etc. , do you mean it seriously, gentlemen ? But I will definitely try them for myself ... (And if I find that Rode sounds the same good or even better than Schoeps, I would be the most happy person in the world - I could sell my Schoeps and buy NT5 and would have lot of cash in my pocket)

And that somebody made the effort and spent time and energy to make some samples (like Didier and others) - this is something to be appreciated. And if you think, it can be done better - just do it ... This is the only good and positive way of criticism. If you are not able to make it better, then maybe relax ...

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

Would it not be better either to try these mics for oneself and to share the direct personal experience or to accept and respect an experience and sharing of those who tried ? But not trying the mentioned mics personally and just endlessly doubting and ridiculing other people's experience sounds already very strange to me ...

You call it "ridicule", I call it stating facts. I have owned all of the fancy microphones(at one point I probably had 20 or 30 schoeps/dpa/gefell)...but it did not matter. I own 3 pairs of the Rode Omnis now, and never miss anything.

If you are really interested, why instead of writing all those endless monotonous lines, you just don't borrow Schoeps and Rode and simply try and you will know for yourself

I do know for myself..as I have owned every mic constantly talked about here AND the RODE AND the Schoeps. If you do not own Rode, I am puzzled why this subject matters so much to you?


.

I have tried in detail quite few low budget SD mics (SE, JZ, Beyer, Sigma, Behringer) and compared them to Schoeps. And there was always very obvious sound quality difference,

Of course you did..anyone would(this thread is full of evidence of that...if it isnt double blind , people will pick which is more expensive.....)...now try it double blind. then see how those differences hold up.

I have not tried Rode NT5 yet, but it would be quite miraculous if for the fraction of price they could match microphones that most professionals in the world consider as one of the very best

Price is not a performance parameter. The plural of anecdote is not data(not my quote).. do you think Professionals are immune from expectation bias? Hardly.

as for samples... ive made plenty(and I posted them here...one of which I spent an entire day making). I don't anymore because they have no real value. Actually, I see them as detrimental because people are so easily fooled. People take these unscientific comparisons and use them like a weapon.. ("yeah, see that expensive XXX it KILLED that cheap YYY , i KNEW it! )..and the misleading cycle goes on and on, until some Sage blows the trumpet and knocks the walls down.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

It was in the previous thread, and it was not a blind test. Just two samples as an addition to other ones from other authors intended for helping the innocent reader in getting his own opinion about the relative sound qualities from Rode and Schoeps. I got the Rode omni caps because of what I read on this forum. I was disappointed with respect to the expectation created by this reading. This is only my own feeling. Not so important. By the way, I did not know Tony Faulkner before this magnificent thread. I just ordered this recording that he did and seems being a masterpiece.(First because of Klaus Tennstedt and the LPO, but according to what I read and the excerpt that I listened to, the recording is technically very good also. At this time Tony should not use the NT5 )



Yes. The MK21 was opposed to 5 other microphones, among which the NT5, and got more than half the votes.

Thanks Didier,

It was my suggestion (I think) that made you do these particular samples, because of the difficulties with comparisons between an almost omni Schoeps MK21 and cardiod Rode.

Tony Faulkner's recordings are often milestones. I have one particular recording of Benjamin Britten's Variations on a theme of Frank Bridge (for strings) and it is an outstanding recording - not to say an outstanding piece and performance (English Chamber Orchestra). There is so much to aim at with that recording.

He has always been an engineer with his ears and eyes open. It will be really worth your while looking at other things he has recorded............as long as the choice of music is what you want to hear!

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Tony Faulkner was amongst the first to adopt the use of Schoeps microphones, and he has a sufficient collection of these that he uses, which is what made me sit up and pay attention to his comments about his use of the Rode omnis. I do not own any Rode microphones, but I will purchase a pair of NT55 at some time in the future and use them as flanking omnis to the Schoeps MK5 cardiod ORTF for some things, I will assess their use in the various set ups and situations I put them in during recordings, I have no doubt they will step up to the mark - I am very interested in his advocacy of them.

I also intend to look at the Shure mics recommended by Plush - it's always worthwhile taking notice of what experienced practioners use (and have to say) there's a reason they do.

The mixing desk I use here is one that TonyF used to use as an extension to his own mixer (of the same type) when he needed more channels. I sometimes think about that and wonder what recordings were made through it when I'm breaking my back lifting it in and out of the van and into the venue, but usually I just see it as a heavy, awkward lump!!

I like the way he uses a minimum number of mics to capture, something that many of us aim at. He often manages an open type of sound that is dynamic and with presence, where the listener is unaware of what the mics are doing.

I don't like to hear recordings that sound manufactured and are full of microphones placed too near instruments and covered in Lexicon sauce afterwards!! I think this stems from trying to achieve some sort of presence, and for making alterations later when requested, but to my ears they tend to sound like a badly joined jigsaw puzzle looks. My overriding preference is for achieving a balance on the day that everyone agrees with and using the minimum number of mics to do so. Better to "eavesdrop" as he says! Live things are another ball game.

That's enough from me now.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Thanks didier,

It was my suggestion I think that made you do these particular samples, because of the comparisons between and almost omni Schoeps and cardiod Rode.

Tony Faulkner's recordings are often milestones. I have one particular recording of Benjamin Britten's Variations on a theme of Frank Bridge (for strings) and it is an outstanding recording - not to say an outstanding piece and performance. There is so much to aim at with that recording.

He has always been an engineer with his ears and eyes open. It will be really worth your while to look at other things he has recorded............as long as the choice of music is what you want to hear!

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Tony Faulkner was amongst the first to adopt the use of Schoeps microphones, and he has a large collection of these that he uses, which is what made me sit up and pay attention to his comments about his use of the Rode omnis. I do not own any Rode microphones, but I will purchase a pair of NT55 and use them as flanking omnis to the Schoeps MK5 cardiod ORTF for somethings. I am very interested in his advocasy of them.

The mixing desk I use here, is one that he used as an extension to his own mixer when he needed more channels. I sometimes think about that, but usually I just see it as a mixing desk!!

I like the way he uses a minimum number of mics to get the effect he wants, something that many of us aim at. He often manages a open type of sound, where the listener is unaware of what the mics are doing.

I don't like to hear recordings that sound manufactured and are full of microphones placed too near instruments and covered in Lexicon sauce afterwards!!

That's enough from me now.

The ones he reccomended to me as good are

Amazon.com: The Lily & The Lamb - chant & polyphony from medieval England: Anonymous 4: MP3 Downloads: Reviews, Prices & more

Amazon.com: Henryk Gorecki: Symphony 3 "Sorrowful Songs": Henryk Gorecki, David Zinman, London Sinfonietta, Dawn Upshaw: Music

the
Rose Lake by Sir Michael Tippett LSO conducted
by Sir Colin Davis. Re. light orchestral try Hyperion British Light
Classics Vol.3 with Ron Corp. Re. concerto try Hyperion Haydn Wood
Piano Concerto also on Hyperion. Re. lieder try Hyperion Schubert
recital with Edith Mathis and Graham Johnson.

Medtner: Skazki - CD - CDA67491/2 - Nikolai Medtner (1880-1951) - Hyperion Records

another quote of his that I am fond of is "too many microphones sounds like bad photoshop work . it is unbelievable." )paraphrased)

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I do know for myself..

Good, fine ... It is your experience. Thanks for sharing. Others may have a different experience though ... What makes you think that your experience is a "reference" experience and everybody should adjust to it ? :-)

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Price is not a performance parameter. Our ears have no receptors for price but we are very sensitive for spectrum, noise and distortion, neither of which is a black art to master these days..
/Peter

True, but in companies and products with integrity, there is a high correlation between flat spectrum, lower noise and distortion, and price.

[Nobilmente]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

The ones he reccomended to me as good are

Amazon.com: The Lily & The Lamb - chant & polyphony from medieval England: Anonymous 4: MP3 Downloads: Reviews, Prices & more

Amazon.com: Henryk Gorecki: Symphony 3 "Sorrowful Songs": Henryk Gorecki, David Zinman, London Sinfonietta, Dawn Upshaw: Music

the
Rose Lake by Sir Michael Tippett LSO conducted
by Sir Colin Davis. Re. light orchestral try Hyperion British Light
Classics Vol.3 with Ron Corp. Re. concerto try Hyperion Haydn Wood
Piano Concerto also on Hyperion. Re. lieder try Hyperion Schubert
recital with Edith Mathis and Graham Johnson.

Medtner: Skazki - CD - CDA67491/2 - Nikolai Medtner (1880-1951) - Hyperion Records

another quote of his that I am fond of is "too many microphones sounds like bad photoshop work . it is unbelievable." )paraphrased)

Thanks Teddy

I'll have a look for these - I know which of my recordings I recommend or give to people and they are those that I regard as the best for a variety of reasons, performance, acoustic, recording etc.

This is very useful information for me...........I live on this stuff !!!!

That's the recording of Gorecki's Symphony 3 "Sorrowful Songs" that reached so many people.

Gorecki died today, aged 76.

Time to sign off from England now, it's 11:45 pm !

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Nobilmente

Gorecki died today, aged 76.

I'm listening to the 3rd symphony conducted by Zinman now. (I did not know that it was recorded by Tony Faulkner.)

[studer58]

I use the Rode NT45 Omni caps as outrigger pairs on orchestral recordings with no qualms at all, but for main pair I usually reach for the Sennheiser 8020 omnis (however I don't mean to introduce yet another variable to this Rode vs Schoeps discussion....tutt ) What I'd like to hear would be a reference recording or two made by Tony Faulkner himself using the Rode omnis...but I don't think Tony (or the companies he records for) are fans of listing the hardware minutiae used in sessions. However, I'll bet Tony would be an assiduous note-keeper of such details, or perhaps he keeps these in his memory. So, Tony, if you're watching this thread...would you please list a few commercial releases of yours in which the Rode omnis played a key role in the recording ?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

I'm listening to the 3rd symphony conducted by Zinman now. (I did not know that it was recorded by Tony Faulkner.)

look at his allmusic credits... youll see how much clout he has.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

True, but in companies and products with integrity, there is a high correlation between flat spectrum, lower noise and distortion, and price.

So are you saying that lower priced companies have no such integrity? That is rather daft of you.

[chris319]

I have not tried Rode NT5 yet, but it would be quite miraculous if for the fraction of price they could match microphones that most professionals in the world consider as one of the very best

But I will definitely try them for myself ... (And if I find that Rode sounds the same good or even better than Schoeps, I would be the most happy person in the world - I could sell my Schoeps and buy NT5 and would have lot of cash in my pocket)

That's nonsense, Ivo. With that kind of bias you're never going to like the NT5 as well as your Schoeps so why bother? Not only do you make no pretense about keeping an open mind, you keep a closed mind and wear it as a badge of honor. Unless it's a proper blind test, you'll be picking mics with your biases, not your ears. Maybe Tony Faulkner's ability to keep an open mind about such things is why he has the reputation he has and you don't?

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by chris319

That's nonsense, Ivo. With that kind of bias you're never going to like the NT5 as well as your Schoeps so why bother? Not only do you make no pretense about keeping an open mind, you keep a closed mind and wear it as a badge of honor. Unless it's a proper blind test, you'll be picking mics with your biases, not your ears. Maybe Tony Faulkner's ability to keep an open mind about such things is why he has the reputation he has and you don't?

Why to worry about other people's mind (ears, reputation etc.) - since it is something you may not know much about in reality ...

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by ISedlacek

I have not tried Rode NT5 yet, but it would be quite miraculous if for the fraction of price they could match microphones that most professionals in the world consider as one of the very best ... I have no reason to doubt Benjamin Maas, David Spearitt and other respected professionals who used these mics and shared their experience ... But exclaiming: Nonsense ! No value ! Snobism! Wallet ! etc. , do you mean it seriously, gentlemen ? But I will definitely try them for myself ... (And if I find that Rode sounds the same good or even better than Schoeps, I would be the most happy person in the world - I could sell my Schoeps and buy NT5 and would have lot of cash in my pocket)

Perhaps NT5 isn't "better" than the Schoeps offerings (or maybe it is.. at least in some situations) but the very idea that price would be a performance parameter maybe keeps some from an open mind and stops them from trying out many other cheaper options in an unbiased and proper test. Just a thought.

And that somebody made the effort and spent time and energy to make some samples (like Didier and others) - this is something to be appreciated. And if you think, it can be done better - just do it ... This is the only good and positive way of criticism. If you are not able to make it better, then maybe relax ...

Sure, but often people make false conclusions based on a lack of understanding of proper test methodology and what is actually being tested.

I never object to a test as such but if I see obvious flaws or false conclusions I just can't sit quiet. An OCD thing perhaps.. :-)


There may be a champ today but things evolve and there's no reason a person or a company can't come up with a better or equally good design at a lower cost.

The pricing of a companys products depends on a lot of things and one thing is sure, the price of the parts that goes into a small mic is a fraction of what is asked for the "premium" mic's.

If you skip advertisement, make the products in the basement instead of a custom built factory with an office and if you see the road to your current state of knowledge as a fun, enriching and passionate hobby (which you don't feel you have to get paid for = R&D for free) it's very possible that you can match big companies products at a fraction of the sale price.

Once you understand business models and that people are different in how they run their business and the salary they take out from the company you can start to realize that price is actually not a performance parameter and something that has almost no connection to the real and actual performance parameters.


/Peter