Recording Orchestra with Choir in a church

[zimma1314]

Hi everyone,
a young conductor wants us (music students) to record an orchestra concert with choir (Mozart Requiem - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d88xIIRDI9U) for her complementary work of her studies (Mozarteum Salzburg).


The acoustic situation is ... challenging, because the concert will take place in an old church:

(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...w=1440&bih=666)

The next thing is, that we only can use these mics:
2 x AKG C414
1 x Neuman U87
2 x AKG SE 300 B
1 x Sennheiser Blackfire 541
1 x SM 57
1 x SM 58


Could you please give us tips our recomendations on how you would setup those mics in order to get the best recording?

I thought we could set up the two C 414s as ORTF (or X/Y) and place them behind the conductor. (I already read someone got better recordings with X/Y with these mics).

And for the two AKG 300's i thought we could also set them up as ORTF and place them in front of the choir. What do you think?

What mic should we place in the center, and should it be a mono or stereo setup?

Ahh, we also have Sennheiser MKH 416 and MKH 60, but do you think we could use them in this project???

We have no budged, so this is we can work with...

Hope someone can help us,
sorry for my english
best regards
Robert

[d_fu]

You could actually also use the 414s in some kind of AB setup, mabe 40 to 60 cm - either cardioid or omni.... They can do a good job that way. 300s on choir (and maybe slightly further towards the front, so they can pick up some woodwinds, too) and the U87 for the soloists would provide a decent minimal solution. Forget about using the dynamic mics here. If you PM me, I can tell you an address in Vienna where you might be able to rent a couple of good mics (Schoeps, Neumann) at a reasonable fee.


Daniel

[zimma1314]

thanks for your early reply. I thought about A/B on the C 414's too, i think we have to try which stereo sounds best.

But do you think we could also use the Sennheiser MKH 416? For. ex.: One in the middle of the stringssections and one in front of the woodwinds. Or in front of the orchestra hard left and right???

bg

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by zimma1314

thanks for your early reply. I thought about A/B on the C 414's too, i think we have to try which stereo sounds best.

I personally don't like XY or MS - too narrow... Is there a rehearsal where you could compare AB and ORTF?

Sure, you can use the 416 and 60 as individual spot mics... Have you got one each?


D.

[rumleymusic]

If the 414's can be set to a Wide Cardioid pattern (depending on the model), you might consider that in a NOS/DIN setup. Depends on how washy the acoustics of the church are. If you want to use the other AKG's as choir mics, you do not really need to conform to the coincident or near coincident patterns. They can be spaced wider and mixed in with the mains.

Personally, I would only consider using the shotguns as inconspicuous soloist spots, though I think Requiem has 4 at some point, so you might need more for that.

[RobAnderson]

You could actually also use the 414s in some kind of AB setup, mabe 40 to 60 cm - either cardioid or omni.... They can do a good job that way. 300s on choir (and maybe slightly further towards the front, so they can pick up some woodwinds, too) and the U87 for the soloists would provide a decent minimal solution. Forget about using the dynamic mics here. If you PM me, I can tell you an address in Vienna where you might be able to rent a couple of good mics (Schoeps, Neumann) at a reasonable fee.

What he said.

If you want to use the other AKG's as choir mics, you do not really need to conform to the coincident or near coincident patterns. They can be spaced wider and mixed in with the mains.

Him too.

I am not a big fan of XY and with 414's it can be difficult to rig. ORTF or AB would be a better way to go. With AB, you might have a better chance of controlling the amount of ambience you pick up, but since there are soloists, you may have an easier time with the imaging using ORTF (assuming they are standing in front next to the conductor).

Depending on how wide the choir is set up, ORTF may or may not be sufficient to get a proper balance. Putting up spots aimed at the borders of the sections might be a better way to go - these do not need to be "hard-panned". Of course, if you are going with AB for mains, then using ORTF and setting them up as Daniel suggests - operating as a "center array" picking up winds as well might be the better way to go.

You really should spot the soloists - the U87 is conspicuous but will do an excellent job. Maybe engage the pad if you are dealing with hard-core opera singers.

Will you get a sound check? Is this being multi-tracked?

PS - you have a good name :-)

[0bazooka_joe0]

A big old stone church is going to be weeeeeet. you'll probably want to put the mics closer to the source than if you were in a more modern (drywall covered) church. A technique that I really like the sound of is a figure 8 (preferably ribbon) behind the conductor with the null to the side. Then a pair of omni condensers (preferably small diaphragm, shoeps, rode, josephson...) over each wing of the orchestra pointing somewhere between the orchestra and choir. If you have cardiods then pointing them down toward the orchestra and then having another pair of cardiod set up above/infront of the choir. If you could hear them first then you could make a better decision. If one side of the choir isnt as strong as the other then you may way to have a pair on them so you can balance them in the mix better. Also, is there a concerto? what is it? you should spot mic it, but depending on what it is you may also want a pair for that.

These to me are sort of best case scenario, having the mics for the job but playing around with these ideas should give you some good results.

I just hope for your sake that church doesnt have like a 10 second reverb tail or you're going to have a "blast" positioning those mics close enough for detail but not so close as to have some instruments/voices over-powering others.

godspeed

PS. I'm with rumleymusic. Wide cardioid is your friend for orchestra/choir

[zimma1314]

Originally Posted by d_fu

I personally don't like XY or MS - too narrow... Is there a rehearsal where you could compare AB and ORTF?

The rehersal is this friday and the general rehersal is one day before the concert in two weeks... scared

I am thinking that the 414's in AB mode (40-60 cm distance) might get a "to wide" image for the orchestra. I would like to have the orchestra "more narrow, but therefore the choir more wider...

Generally speaking, whicht mode would make the stereo image wider:
- ORTF (standard distance between mics: 17 cm, angle: 110 degres) OR
- AB (distance between mics: ca. 50 cm)

Originally Posted by d_fu

Sure, you can use the 416 and 60 as individual spot mics... Have you got one each?

Yeah, i think we only have one of each, got to check that...

Personally, I would only consider using the shotguns as inconspicuous soloist spots, though I think Requiem has 4 at some point, so you might need more for that.

Yes, I am not yet shure, but there should be a Sopran, Alt, Tenor and Bass, (but i wait for the response from the conductor to confirm that). This Project sounds a bit huge and challenging for us (never done that before), i don't understand why the conductor does not have a bigger budget...

Yes it will be a concerto, I think i ask my teacher if he will help us out with his DPA 4600, haha, he wont do that...

Thanks for your tips

[d_fu]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

What he said.

Rob, when you quote, you drop the information on who you are quoting... It's e.g. the "=RobAnderson;5960601" part after the QUOTE tag. Makes it difficult to know who you are referring/replying to sometimes...


Daniel

[RobAnderson]

Sorry Daniel - I just type in the "quote" tags when I quote, which is why the info is never there.

I'll have to start trying to use the buttons...

But for now

zimma1314 says:
Generally speaking, which mode would make the stereo image wider:
- ORTF (standard distance between mics: 17 cm, angle: 110 degres) OR
- AB (distance between mics: ca. 50 cm)

A wider spacing will generally sound "wider" for a given source, depending on how far apart the mic's are and how close the source is.

In this case you can try ORTF as mains with AB spots on choir - but, again, you don't necessarily have to adhere to some textbook stereophonic technique for the choir spots - get the musical balance you need. Listen to the mains and see what needs help coming through to the recording.

[bumbum]

Yes, I am not yet shure, but there should be a Sopran, Alt, Tenor and Bass, (but i wait for the response from the conductor to confirm that).

I can confirm that. Did it yesterday (as a Musician)

good luck !

[ghellquist]

I have played the Mozart requiem and recorded it. It can be challenging to record at the best of times as there are really 4 or 5 different things to balance towards each other.

The choir has to be heard, often with amateur choirs it can be too soft or difficult to hear. You may want to add some extra micing on parts of the choir, but if you go too close the choir will turn inte single voices which is not what you want. Often the choir is behind the orchestra so extra mics has to go between the orchestra and choir on very high stands. Make sure the stands are safe and will not fall down. Best bet if you have the resources is to fly the mics from lines above (again, carefully check safety).

The orchestra generally is heard and should not be a problem as such except for the timpany part if it is played on modern timpanys will boom quite a bit in the room. If you have a less experienced timpany player, do talk with the conductor to make sure that the instruments will be dampened a bit.

There are four singing soloists, if they are professional singers they will be plenty load enough, but you will probably want to have spot mics in order to increase clarity of singing in the solo parts. This is always tricky as too far away does not give any resolution and too close will sound unnatural.

And there are soloist instrument parts as well. One example is the Tuba Mirum that starts with trombone solo, continues with presenting each of the four singers with different accompaniments and then goes inte four parts singing at the same time.

There is as well an organ part which may create a problem. Best is if there is smaller portable choir organ placed inside the orchestra. If it is the large main organ in another end of the room, balancing can get really difficult for the conductor, let us hope that is not the case.

Well, best bet is as very often to start with one carefully placed main stereo pair. Generally close to where the conductor stands, my preferred position is often high up slightly in front of the conductor (between orchestra and conductor), but practicalities often comes in the way. This mic pair will create most of the sound and is where you should place most of your effort. Miss out on this and nothing else really matters. I tend to use ORTF (cardioids, 110 degrees, 17cm) or some variation on that when behind the back of the conductor. Alternatively AB (omni mics, approximately a 60 cm apart, vary distance to taste from about 30cm to 2 meters) if in front of the conductor.

Add to that spot mics allowing you to add volume and/or resolution to the things that should be heard but are not quite there in the main mics. Ears are really the only tool useable for this, or experience if you have done several similar things before. As already mentioned the choir can need this kind of support for volume and the soloists for resolution. My preferred method for adding choir is three mics flown or on high stands between the choir and orchestra, but you will take what you have.

If you still have channels and mics available you might want to add more "ambience" to the mic setups. My first stop then is outriggers, most often omni mics placed something like 10 meters apart in front of the orchestra. Blended to taste later in the mixing stage. Or sometimes a mic farther back in the room adding natural reverb.

If you can, do record to separate channels and mix later. If you mix on spot, you definitely need to be in a separate room and listening on speakers -- my experience is that classical music can not be balanced properly using headphones. Getting out of the room where the performance is beeing done is generally a good idea as it allows you to hear what is recorded, which might not be what is heard in the room. This takes long cables and preparations.

Last advice, do test everything well in advance. Dry run setting up and tearing down mics in order to make sure that you have every single cable and fastener needed. Run your recording equipment for several hours checking that it will not suddenly stop due to file size overflow or things like that. Additionally, record every rehearsal if possible and save them. The final performance might not be the best take, having the rehearsals recorded allows you to cut and splice around some of the worst parts.

// Gunnar

[pianokeys]

Gunnar - reading your lengthy and informative post reminds me of the generous nature of many gs members - kudos!!

[bumbum]

very good adcice from Gunnar

BUT !

The orchestra generally is heard and should not be a problem as such except for the timpany part if it is played on modern timpanys will boom quite a bit in the room. If you have a less experienced timpany player, do talk with the conductor to make sure that the instruments will be dampened a bit.

I strongly dissagree, do not damp the Timps. I hate that "sound".
Ask the Player to use hard Mallets, Wood/Leather,
and to damp a lot by hand.
A pair of Baroque Timps would be best, maybe you can rent a pair.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by zimma1314

Hi everyone,
a young conductor wants us (music students) to record an orchestra concert with choir (Mozart Requiem - YouTube - Mozart's Requiem Mass in D Minor I - Introitus and Kyrie) for her complementary work of her studies (Mozarteum Salzburg).
(snip)
The next thing is, that we only can use these mics:
2 x AKG C414
1 x Neuman U87
2 x AKG SE 300 B
1 x Sennheiser Blackfire 541
1 x SM 57
1 x SM 58
Ahh, we also have Sennheiser MKH 416 and MKH 60, but do you think we could use them in this project???

This mic list looks a bit like it's not been bought primarily for classical music.
However, you can get useable results with the AKGs, the U87, and the MKHs. How I'd use them:
Main pair - C414
Timpani spot - U87
Choir - SE300B (I assume they have the cardioid heads?)
Soloists - MKHs
Usually the timpani in a concert are set up "out of the way" and not where they sound best. That's why you need to carefully spot them (not too close, you'll probably be fine about 1.5 or even 2 meters away!)
Soloists usually are set up 2 left, 2 right next to conductor - therefore each soloist pair gets one of the MKHs. As these are very directional, you can place them a little bit farther away, probably even on the main pair stand.

Originally Posted by zimma1314

I am thinking that the 414's in AB mode (40-60 cm distance) might get a "to wide" image for the orchestra. I would like to have the orchestra "more narrow, but therefore the choir more wider...
Generally speaking, whicht mode would make the stereo image wider:
- ORTF (standard distance between mics: 17 cm, angle: 110 degres) OR
- AB (distance between mics: ca. 50 cm)

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

A wider spacing will generally sound "wider" for a given source, depending on how far apart the mic's are and how close the source is.

...and depending on pattern and angle between the mics.
For some good illustrations about how wide an image you'll get with a given stereo setup, you can google Williams' "The Stereophonic Zoom" paper, or in German, Eberhard Sengpiel's site, especially these three pdfs: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Unsicht...hmebereich.pdf
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Aufnahm...htigeWerte.pdf
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Taschen...hmebereich.pdf

A 50...60 cm AB will NOT be too wide, but probably just right.

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

In this case you can try ORTF as mains with AB spots on choir - but, again, you don't necessarily have to adhere to some textbook stereophonic technique for the choir spots - get the musical balance you need. Listen to the mains and see what needs help coming through to the recording.

Choir spots really aren't a stereo pair, but rather two mono mics, often pointing at the borders between S/A respectively T/B (or S/T - A/B), and can be panned wherever is appropriate.
Listening is the key, and knowing what you want to hear.

[RobAnderson]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Depending on how wide the choir is set up, ORTF may or may not be sufficient to get a proper balance. Putting up spots aimed at the borders of the sections might be a better way to go - these do not need to be "hard-panned".

again, you don't necessarily have to adhere to some textbook stereophonic technique for the choir spots - get the musical balance you need.

orginally posted by pkautzsch
Choir spots really aren't a stereo pair, but rather two mono mics, often pointing at the borders between S/A respectively T/B (or S/T - A/B), and can be panned wherever is appropriate.
Listening is the key, and knowing what you want to hear.

thumbsup

Not sure if it's lost in translation, but it looks to me like we're saying the same thing.

Although, I have used near-coincident techniques as a choir accent technique for choir/orchestra setups with success.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

thumbsup

Not sure if it's lost in translation, but it looks to me like we're saying the same thing.

We are absolutely.

Although, I have used near-coincident techniques as a choir accent technique for choir/orchestra setups with success.

Depends on choir size and how they stand. I mostly deal with straight rows - an angled setup would, IME, make them sound like the outer singers were a lot farther away than the mid. When they stand in a half-circle, probably an ORTF-ish pair is better (and needs only one stand!).

[ghellquist]

Originally Posted by bumbum

very good adcice from Gunnar

I strongly dissagree, do not damp the Timps. I hate that "sound".
Ask the Player to use hard Mallets, Wood/Leather,
and to damp a lot by hand.
A pair of Baroque Timps would be best, maybe you can rent a pair.

bumbum - I agree totally. Sorry if this was unclear, I wanted "less sound" from the timpany, not beeing a player myself I could not really say how to achieve it.

// Gunnar