Advice sought: How do I record a sax?

[FabJZ]

I have a friend who is coming by to put some sax on my tunes.

Available gear:
Pre-amps - Avalon 737, Chandler LT-1
Compressor - Chandler LTD-2, Avalon 737
Mics - Soundelux U195, AEA R92 ribbon, AKG C1000, SM57

I plan to start with the LTD-1 and the ribbon, no compression. I think I will keep the sax 5 feet from the mic....

Opinions, please.

How would you handle this?

Thanking all in advance. Fab

[zarembo]

maybe set up two complete chains at the same time.....and compare, and then switch mics/preamps and compare again.

do what you said, but also have the soundelux up through the avalon.

who knows, you may be surprised?

or you may hear just what you want out of the chute.

I might have them get a little closer than five feet depending on the room and desired sound.

have fun recording the sax!

[picksail]

Have the sax player walk around your room until he finds a spot that he likes. Then take the AEA ribbon and bring it about 9" from the bell ponited down. Perhaps try the Chandler with it.

Ribbon mics do wonderful things to reed instruments, espcially Wes Dooley's mics.

[mrbobb]

Try putting one mic on the bell and one close to the holes. Everytime I have the chance to record the sax with 2 inputs, I get a much richer sound from blending the two. A lot of tone comes out of those holes. Good Luck

M

[FabJZ]

Those are great tips. You guys are a great help. Many thanks...

[idee und klang]

funny noone asked what kind of sax it is, that you have to record... A Alto is a total different beast to record than a tenor. Not to speak of a soprano.

The Mic position is the most importatnt thing, I would probably try the sounddelux. On tenor the typical sound is relativle close to the bell. From the angel one has to try sometimes it is cool if the mic is poiniting in the bell (maybe slightly from the left side, if you are standing in front of him), but sumetimes it should be pointed so that it poinitng still a little in the bell but also on the neck. However on tenor, most things (even the very high frequency sizzle, that some saxer like and some not) comes out of the bell.

On Alto the sound comes out of the bell and neck. What comed out of the neck sounds better from trh left side if you are standing in front of him (or the right side from the saxer. Thats because of the poition where the wholes are). So you might be a littel further away, so that you can mic the bell and the neck good with one mic. And not infront of him but slightly from the left sied, maybe 10 degrees.

In both cases a ribben as room mic could or could not give something. If the room is not killer I prefer to have only one mic. The ribbon as close mic would be something to try. To have 2 Mics close to the sax never did it for me, because they would be to close together, which changes the tone to much if mixed together. If you can find a sweetspot with one mic then that will shine.


Daniel
www.ideeundklang.com

[5down1up]

Imho ... its all about how loud (s)hes playing . if its like a smooth jazzy chillout kinda thing where the players doing the triplet >di da bo dide da< kinda thing , you cant do wrong much . youll get a nice tone , youll hear the breathing only downside could be loud click , clack , clock kinda thing .

but if you are recording a player thats inhaling like this is the last breath of his entire life and spitting it out like a whale you might be in trouble .

for the first scenario i would pick up a nice clean pre , and you have a great collection of mics especially the soundelux + aea

if its the loud scenario i would even try adding a dynamic mic to make sure youll not in the need of a DEESSER for those nasty iiiiiiiiiiiiks + squeaaaaaaaks which make every dog run away

best result i had : 2 condensers , one pointing @ the bell and the other one covering the left side of the player . make sure you leave some space so you get a lil room sound as well . if the players moving a lot , try omni mode or nail him/her to the floor .

basically treat it like you would treat a vocal . if the performer cant sing , you can forget all your gear . if he/she can ... you have all the tools there , good luck !

[ARude]

Best mic for Sax is unquestionably the Ribbon. Go with the AEA and don't stuff it in the bell. Acoustic instruments sound best when miced at a distance. Use your ears to tell you the best place to put the mic, give the sax player a dummy mic to play into to keep him in place.

I recently did a session with both the AEA and the Royer mics on all kinds of brass and winds. Whew! THAT's the way that stuff should sound! Remember, most of the big band stuff was recorded with RCA ribbons...

[TNALUV1]

Try a Mic right next to the players ear, pointing down at the horn. If the player isn't a loud breather AND if you can get the phasing right with your "five foot away" mic, you might be really happy with the result when you blend the two. It gives a nice players perspective that some of my clients have really liked.

If you have the time, try a few things!

Peace, Alex......

http://mindignition.net

[7rojo7]

Jazz, Ribbon up top16" and 195 on the bell, classic RVG. ribbon is more directional and tames the hiss up top, the 195 will give you balls, too much bell sound can give you a very nasal or midrangy sound, I like to put the mic in front to the left, not in the bell. The dummy mic suggestionwill work for some.
For rock, the 195 between the bell and the keys as close as you can get it. forget the room mic, your looking for an even response for the entire register of the instrument, every instrument and player are different.
Avalons on the 195, Chandlers on the ribbon.

[jim demetri]

to be honest with you i got a great sax sound out of an old sm58 yep . that only proved my point that it was the sax player that gave me it . i dident have a choice as the studio i was in dident have any mics outher than one old 414 that was on a vocal and some old sm58s. so i used it . but the sax player was a real pro and new how to blow . man what a sound . i cant stress the point that it really does depend on the player.

[blaugruen7]

i have a cd from the paul motion, bill frisell, joe lovano trio.
they use a telefunken 251 for sax, if the pictures in the booklet taken from the session dont lie.
and the sax sounds very nice to me.
and i am a saxophonist.
but i think it would always deepend on the sound of the saxophonist and the music.
mind bending pop saxophon sound without any lows and mids would need another mic if you would like to stand it.

[audiothings]

your idea sounded like a good starting point. I did not enjoy putting two mics on sax, as i found it very hard to get a consistent sound that way.

.02,
self.

[garbarek]

What about soprano, my primary beast?

Combinations that have worked? Didn't work?

[Stizz]

Originally Posted by garbarek

What about soprano, my primary beast?

Combinations that have worked? Didn't work?

Jan Garbarek is the bomb! My sax-playing wife's role model for sax...

Stay away from the center of the bell for soprano - I know that some people like to mic it near the player's ear - I have had mixed results with that - usually I start about 12 inches away, sort of pointing the mic in the vicinity of the lip of the bell.

[fifthcircle]

Gotta say, I can't believe how many suggestions for 2 mics I'm seeing... perhaps it is the performer in me (I play woodwinds- clarinet is my main instrument, but I've also played sax for 15 years or so), but if you can't get it to sound good with a single mic, you either aren't putting it in the right place or you have the wrong mic out.

I'll second the suggestions for the ribbon mic. Ribbons have a great fat, yet smooth sound on sax. I haven't tried that particular mic, but I've gotten great sounds from RCA's, Coles, Royers, Beyers and other ribbons. My other favorite for Sax is the Neuman UM-57.

I usually start a couple feet out and have it point towards the middle of the instrument, just looking over the bell. Adjusting angle gets you differences between a brighter or darker sound (as you are changing ballance between bell and mouthpiece). Don't put the mic down the bell as you run the rather substantial risk of having individual notes "honk" out (especially "D" in the staff or anything below E-flat or so at the bottom of the register).

As for soprano- depends on if it is a straight or curved soprano and whether the player is holding down (like a clarinet) or up as many sax players do... In any case, I usually aim for the center of the instrument, but I usually approach it from about head height.

I think 5 feet out will probably be a bit far- I'd do that for a classical recording, but not something that needs to exist in a mix with other instruments that are either close-mic'd or direct. The idea of leaving compression off is also a good one. The dynamic range if you position the mic isn't huge and you would be best to keep compression to a minimum. If you find you need it in the mix, that is fine, but don't constrain yourself at the beginning.

Well, just a few thoughts...

--Ben

[garbarek]

Wonderful replies, gentlemen. And, sorry Steve, I'm not Jan Garbarek.

But I may be his biggest fan.

Changed my life. Put me onto my path as a player. My favorite saxophonist ever....

erm...right after Paul Desmond.

OMG, I can't believe I admitted that.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm free.

You've saved me years of therapy.

[bongo]

Originally Posted by garbarek

What about soprano, my primary beast?

Combinations that have worked? Didn't work?

I've always used two mics with Dave Liebman. One opposite each hand.

Lately I've been using 2 Royer 122's.

[Roland]

One or two mic techniques can both work and I have heard good results with both. Wesley Magoogan (The Beat, Billy Ocean, Hazel O'Conner etc) is a long term friend of mine and he always used either 1 or 2 AKG 414's in the studio. I've used a single 414 to record Mel Collins with great results. I would try either the AEA or the Soudelux on their own to start with. Anything from 9" to 3 feet away, depending on the room/player/sound that you want. If at that stage it is not happening for you, try one close to the bell and one higher up near the keys/mouthpiece. If you do use two mic's just keep an eye on possible phase issues (if both mics are sent to the same track or panned the same way).

Regards



Roland

[bloodstone]

I recorded a tenor sax recently using a ribbon sort of aimed toward the bell and I used a lg diaphragm condenser (AKG 414 BULS) aimed at the keys. It turned out great. Much better than the ribbon alone would have been.

[dbbubba]

Use one mic...
the U195 will be fine.

Worry about what is being played

If anyone is listening THAT hard they aren't listening to the player.
The part should be better than worrying about the difference of one or two mics.
Plus, while you are d*cking with blending two mics you could be concentrating on performance and possibly the next cut you want to record.

realworld tips:

Listen for tuning
DO NOT compress it!!!!

In too dead of a space a sax can sound small.
You need a bit of room.
Unless it is a really subtle part that needs to be very up close and personal.
Played loudly it will start to thin out in a dead room.

I always think of and voice a sax like a femaie vocal except for the compression.

Danny Brown

[FabJZ]

Thought I would report back after the session....
Thanks to all who responded - it was definitely a help.

In the end I used both mics:
1) Soundlux U195 into the Avalon 737, placed about head level, 2 feet away, aimed slightly down at the middle of the sax +
2) AEA R92 into the Chandler LTD2, placed about 6 inches above the top of the bell, 1.5 feet away, aimed straight at the middle of the sax.

I recorded each mic to its own track:

To my ears, the single track of the AEA R92 will be what I start with at mixtime. It sounded more balanced and fuller. The U195 sounded fine, but thinner (maybe a little too 'delicate'). Either one of R91 and U195 sounded better than R92+U195 played back together; however; I will experiment with this, if I can't place the single track version well.

Again, thanks. Fab