First Live Sound Engineering Job...

[BORNintoMUSIC]

I just found out I'll be doing the live sound for my Dad's guitar ensemble! I'm really excited about the opportunity but I've only seen the mixer being run from a distance.

Here's an overview to what I'll be doing:
-Setting up about 20 acoustic guitar amplifiers, mic'd with SM57's.
-Engineering the live sound for the audience.
-It's a professionally constructed building that's made for live performances.
-There will be two singers on occasion. (One male, One female)
-The audience will probably consist of about 100-150 people.

Here's the mixer they are using:
M7CL V3 | Mixers | Products | Yamaha Pro Audio


Basically what I'm looking for is advice. I've engineering my band's work in a project studio environment for the last 5 years, but I've never done live sound engineering like this. I'm very familiar with compression, EQ, panning... ya know the basics. I'm only going to get 2 days (starting this sunday, for a total of about 8 hours) to work with this mixer before the show.


Anything you guys would recommend?

[mesadude]

Don't

that's what i recommend..

if you've never seen the desk in closup, never ever done live-sound.

and if you absolutely want to do it.. make sure you have someone very experienced next to you during those 2 preperation days AND during the show!

[jabney]

Originally Posted by BORNintoMUSIC

...
Here's an overview to what I'll be doing:
-Setting up about 20 acoustic guitar amplifiers, mic'd with SM57's.
-Engineering the live sound for the audience.
...

Anything you guys would recommend?

I'd try to find a different way of capturing the acoustic guitars. 20 acoustic guitar amplifiers on stage sounds like it could be a disaster in the making - especially for a novice, and even more especially for a novice on a digital board.

Rent or borrow 20 channels of DI, plug the guitars into those, and use ONE monitor mix - spread it over as many monitors as you need.

If the room is right, you could use a Crown SASS-P or other stereo mike for all the massed guitars, but that's probably not a good idea for a first-timer.

If you can arrange to take the mixer home, then you could devote every spare minute to learning it cold, unless you already know it well enough to run blindfolded.

best,

john

[BORNintoMUSIC]

Originally Posted by jabney

I'd try to find a different way of capturing the acoustic guitars. 20 acoustic guitar amplifiers on stage sounds like it could be a disaster in the making - especially for a novice, and even more especially for a novice on a digital board.

Rent or borrow 20 channels of DI, plug the guitars into those, and use ONE monitor mix - spread it over as many monitors as you need.

If the room is right, you could use a Crown SASS-P or other stereo mike for all the massed guitars, but that's probably not a good idea for a first-timer.

If you can arrange to take the mixer home, then you could devote every spare minute to learning it cold, unless you already know it well enough to run blindfolded.

best,

john

Interesting! Thanks for the heads up. I'll double check with my Dad... they may have DI available. I'm just basing my guess upon previous experience watching his ensemble there in the past.

I don't have much experience with this board but I found an excellent 3 hour tutorial from the people at Yahama that I'll be watching a couple times before going in. Hopefully that will help me dig in.

Were looking at something similar to this room, except the room I'm working in curves in a C shape around the stage.

Any advice about keeping the mix clean? 20 guitars (they will mostly be playing the same part) might get a bit muddy?

Thanks,
Brandon

[jabney]

Originally Posted by BORNintoMUSIC

Interesting! Thanks for the heads up. I'll double check with my Dad... they may have DI available.
...

Any advice about keeping the mix clean? 20 guitars (they will mostly be playing the same part) might get a bit muddy?

Thanks,
Brandon

DIs will allow you some control over the muddiness in your mix. But people skills are even more important.

It's not fair, but if you look too young and inexperienced, you may not get the respect and cooperation you need in order to help these folks put across the show. Honesty goes a long way: so don't try to BS the players by pretending to know what you don't know. Confidence matters too: so don't make a huge deal out of being new - at least in front of the players.

Is there a really great, mostly non-guitar, record that you think your Dad and his peers would enjoy? Having it playing softly or moderately on stage and in the house as the players filter in would probably help.

And smile.

best,

john

[BORNintoMUSIC]

DIs will allow you some control over the muddiness in your mix. But people skills are even more important.

It's not fair, but if you look too young and inexperienced, you may not get the respect and cooperation you need in order to help these folks put across the show. Honesty goes a long way: so don't try to BS the players by pretending to know what you don't know. Confidence matters too: so don't make a huge deal out of being new - at least in front of the players.

Is there a really great, mostly non-guitar, record that you think your Dad and his peers would enjoy? Having it playing softly or moderately on stage and in the house as the players filter in would probably help.

And smile.

best,

This is great advice! Thanks! I've got moderate people skills so I can definitely play the 'im a noob, but no need to worry' card. The only thing that will suck is if I end up destroying people's ears with feedback.. that's my only real concern atm. I was thinking of playing Pat Metheny in the background while people filter in. Seems like a good fit for the audience that will be attending.

[jabney]

Originally Posted by BORNintoMUSIC

...The only thing that will suck is if I end up destroying people's ears with feedback.. that's my only real concern atm. I was thinking of playing Pat Metheny in the background while people filter in. Seems like a good fit for the audience that will be attending.

The worst case scenario for feedback is when you can't identify where it's originating. But you can usually tell whether it's coming from the monitors or from the mains. Pulling down the appropriate master fader and then bringing it right back up (but a little lower than it was) can save your bacon when you are in doubt. The feedback that is most likely would come from one or more of the guitars being held too long at the wrong angle. A few times experiencing feedback and you'll learn to recognize when it's starting to build-up on stage.

The walk-in music for the crowd is important (in my circles, we like Pat Metheny for exit music). But I'm specifically suggesting walk-in music for the players. Perhaps at the first rehearsal. And it definitely needn't be the most conventional choice. Rather, it's you saying (via your selection) that you are musically literate and eager to interact with the players. Roots music that the ensemble's set-list is derived from can be a good choice. Classical might work. Or an indie record you are listening to on heavy rotation.

Retain control of the walk-in, break, and exit music if you can. Let the music you play over the PA work to showcase the live band - in other words, let the band be louder - always.

best,

john

[BORNintoMUSIC]

Originally Posted by jabney

The worst case scenario for feedback is when you can't identify where it's originating. But you can usually tell whether it's coming from the monitors or from the mains. Pulling down the appropriate master fader and then bringing it right back up (but a little lower than it was) can save your bacon when you are in doubt. The feedback that is most likely would come from one or more of the guitars being held too long at the wrong angle. A few times experiencing feedback and you'll learn to recognize when it's starting to build-up on stage.

In the worse case scenario situation, when feedback starts generating and I have no idea where it's coming from, I should take the mains down a smudge and bring them back up? Otherwise I should really know my signal flow inside and out (ideally) before reaching for the mains?

The walk-in music for the crowd is important (in my circles, we like Pat Metheny for exit music). But I'm specifically suggesting walk-in music for the players. Perhaps at the first rehearsal. And it definitely needn't be the most conventional choice. Rather, it's you saying (via your selection) that you are musically literate and eager to interact with the players. Roots music that the ensemble's set-list is derived from can be a good choice. Classical might work. Or an indie record you are listening to on heavy rotation.

Retain control of the walk-in, break, and exit music if you can. Let the music you play over the PA work to showcase the live band - in other words, let the band be louder - always.

best,

john

Very interesting info! Ok! Do you think Pandora would be a good place to start research of similar music, once I know the repertoire?

Music etiquette never really crossed my mind but it makes complete sense now that you mention it! This is a huge heads up and much appreciated John! Thank you!!

[jabney]

Originally Posted by BORNintoMUSIC

In the worse case scenario situation, when feedback starts generating and I have no idea where it's coming from, I should take the mains down a smudge and bring them back up? Otherwise I should really know my signal flow inside and out (ideally) before reaching for the mains?

If you can just hear the feedback as it starts, then you can use your PFL (Pre Fader Listen) to try to isolate the offending input, then adjust that channel only. But for the master fader dump, I'm only talking about howling, ear piercing feedback. If it happens, you want to break the feedback loop quickly. So forget the smudge part, yank the fader down (all the way won't hurt) as quickly as you can, then back up almost as quickly. It's a clunky but (usually) reliable remedy for an ugly situation.

Very interesting info! Ok! Do you think Pandora would be a good place to start research of similar music, once I know the repertoire?

I'd strongly suggest complimentary music rather than similar music. If you seed Pandora with a song that sounds similar to the band, then consider seeding the same Pandora play-list with a few songs that you like that don't sound similar at all. See what Pandora comes up with in between. Or when you play a song on youtube, there will be a listing on the right side of the screen. Those at the top of the right side list accompanying a reasonably popular song will be very similar, but toward the bottom, there are usually some 'I didn't think of that' choices.

Music etiquette never really crossed my mind but it makes complete sense now that you mention it! This is a huge heads up and much appreciated John! Thank you!!

You're welcome, break a leg! (or as a good friend likes to say, break a string!)

best,

john

[jude]

make sure you know how to use the desk inside and out before the soundchecks. i am also a big fan of using studio manager (i use a dm 1000) to navigate around the desk quicker, and also show meters of all inputs and outputs. i find it a big help, and if you are new to using digital desks it will make your patching much easier too!

[tombak]

First off get your monitor mix going, make sure wedges point directly at the singer with the mic capsule going in the same direction. This will help minimize feedback. When getting FOH going think in terms of additive mixing, apart from the vocals bring up each instrument as needed, balance levels with the musicians, listen to the room. Do this from the mix position and audience positions. Get the stage-sound to sound balanced first before bringing up faders. Ask (respectfully) for the guitar player to turn down and the bass player to add a little more mid range from his amp, etc. Then when working in the mix use EQ sparingly, subtractive EQing goes further than additive.

Personally I like keeping drummers and lead vocals away from each other. Having a vocalist standing In front of the drummer can create problems with cymbal bleed.

Mixing live can be fun if, but often its more about damage control rather than musical mixing. Like in a studio this always depends on the players, the room, the engineer, and the gear. But in a live situation you only get one shot, there are no 2nd takes nor undo buttons.

I hope some of this helps you. Good luck, mix as often you can, and in many different rooms. You will only improve over time.

[gtrplyr1]

20 Acoustic guitars ? In a room that size ?

Sounds like a disaster in the making if you put up 20 open mics.

If all of them are really using "Acoustic" amps each amp will have a "DI" out , but something tells me they won't all have true "Acoustic" amps. Frankly I wouldn't bother taking a DI or using mics on any of the amps ... let them all try to moderate their volume themselves ...

I'm guessing that it's some sort of college ensemble , if so, they have probably rehearsed dynamics (hopefully) ... in a room that small let them take care of it. Mic the singers and call it a day.

BTW, if they are all playing the same thing ... and I'd doubt they are it won't matter what you do ... it will be a mess.

[blacklion]

If at all possible, have someone with you who knows the board, live sound, or at the very least can help you stay on schedule with the prep, setup and sound check. Even if it's someone with basic (but solid) knowledge of I/O and cables, they can be of help in your case. Be polite to your musicians, but give them confidence that you can handle your stage.

You're getting really good advice here, btw. Wish I had it before my summer doing live sound for outdoor Salsa concerts.

Good luck and give them your best!

[BORNintoMUSIC]

Hey guys I have more accurate and updated information about the stage.

• From what I understand we are only mic'ing one instrument, and that's a stand up bass. (Any recommendations mic'ing that with a 57???!) My dad (who teaches this group) plays along with the students (direct in stereo stratocaster, he really helps balance the dynamics. It's a high school group and the previous shows were very well coordinated and actually sounded really cool!)

• The rest of the guitars are going in direct and only 4 guitars (the better players) at that.

• There will be a total of 8 vocalists going through SM57's (much more then told originally)

And by the way, this example picture that I gave you is smaller then the room I'm working in. Add two more sections that size but they curve in a C shape around the stage. Additionally this room has been 'professionally bled'. According to my dad they rarely have problems with feedback. I'll see if I can head down there early on Sunday and record the room from my phone for you guys to get a better idea.

Originally Posted by tombak

First off get your monitor mix going, make sure wedges point directly at the singer with the mic capsule going in the same direction. This will help minimize feedback. When getting FOH going think in terms of additive mixing, apart from the vocals bring up each instrument as needed, balance levels with the musicians, listen to the room. Do this from the mix position and audience positions. Get the stage-sound to sound balanced first before bringing up faders. Ask (respectfully) for the guitar player to turn down and the bass player to add a little more mid range from his amp, etc. Then when working in the mix use EQ sparingly, subtractive EQing goes further than additive.

Personally I like keeping drummers and lead vocals away from each other. Having a vocalist standing In front of the drummer can create problems with cymbal bleed.

Mixing live can be fun if, but often its more about damage control rather than musical mixing. Like in a studio this always depends on the players, the room, the engineer, and the gear. But in a live situation you only get one shot, there are no 2nd takes nor undo buttons.

I hope some of this helps you. Good luck, mix as often you can, and in many different rooms. You will only improve over time.

Thanks Tombak! You're saying that I should create a headphone mix of the stage monitors? Once I've got that situated, bring up the other players and instruments one by one, until I think it sound good enough. Then listen to that mix from various points in the room and adjust accordingly?

I'm definitely with you on damage control. From my 5 years experience mixing my band in my project studio, I have a decent idea of frequency range... by no means am I any where near bob katz, but I can at least tell when certain frequencies are mashing together.

Now since there is going to be 8 vocalists that totally changes the game. There will be a drum set, so you're basically saying to offset the vocalists as much as possible?

If you can just hear the feedback as it starts, then you can use your PFL (Pre Fader Listen) to try to isolate the offending input, then adjust that channel only.

John, so essentially run through the solo of each pre-fader as quickly as possible to see if I can find the feedback?

So forget the smudge part, yank the fader down (all the way won't hurt) as quickly as you can, then back up almost as quickly. It's a clunky but (usually) reliable remedy for an ugly situation.

Got it. Thanks!

i am also a big fan of using studio manager (i use a dm 1000) to navigate around the desk quicker, and also show meters of all inputs and outputs. i find it a big help, and if you are new to using digital desks it will make your patching much easier too!

Hey Jude, so that's built into this Digital Mixer that I linked above in my first post? I'll have to read up on that it sounds extremely useful!

Even if it's someone with basic (but solid) knowledge of I/O and cables, they can be of help in your case. Be polite to your musicians, but give them confidence that you can handle your stage.

Blacklion, thanks for the heads up! My dad is familar with the basic knowledge of the I/O and cables. Otherwise it's up to me to take care of the mixing board. I'll make sure to have him within shouting distance. Unfortunately they haven't setup talk back for the stage that I'm aware of... maybe I can do that o.O?

You're getting really good advice here, btw.

I whole heartedly agree!!! Thank you so much everyone! We will be recording this concert. So I'll paste a you tube video up there with the mixing board, room, and a couple good songs. I'll definitely keep any audio engineering errors in the video too so maybe you can comment on them and what would have saved me. (Hopefully that doesn't happen though)


Thanks!!!!!!!!!!

[jabney]

...Unfortunately they haven't setup talk back for the stage that I'm aware of... maybe I can do that o.O?

I co-write with a soundman, Ian, who can set-up a good mix faster than I, and he is of the opinion that a talk-back mike is the most important tool in his bag of tricks. I won't disagree with him there. So, yes. Do set-up a talk-back mike. Use the most pristine looking mikes on stage and the worst looking beater for talk-back.

That's assuming the mikes are all functionally OK. Since they are not your mikes, you may want to run through them all in advance to catch any audible problems.

best,

john

[tombak]

Originally Posted by jabney

I co-write with a soundman, Ian, who can set-up a good mix faster than I, and he is of the opinion that a talk-back mike is the most important tool in his bag of tricks. I won't disagree with him there. So, yes. Do set-up a talk-back mike. Use the most pristine looking mikes on stage and the worst looking beater for talk-back.

Great advice above. In fact it never hurts to bring your own TB mic (+cable) just in case, it can be a sub-par dynamic mic like a Shure PG58 or something like that. Actually a mic with a switch is actually really helpful. Plug it in directly to the console into a spare channel but only bring it up in the monitor sends (pre-fader). After you set your TB levels, just use the handheld switch to talk to the band on the stage through the monitors.

[BORNintoMUSIC]

Originally Posted by tombak

Great advice above. In fact it never hurts to bring your own TB mic (+cable) just in case, it can be a sub-par dynamic mic like a Shure PG58 or something like that. Actually a mic with a switch is actually really helpful. Plug it in directly to the console into a spare channel but only bring it up in the monitor sends (pre-fader). After you set your TB levels, just use the handheld switch to talk to the band on the stage through the monitors.

Great idea! I've got one with a switch as well! Thanks!!!

[shaddai]

make sure wedges point directly at the singer with the mic capsule going in the same direction. This will help minimize feedback.

Just a clarifying thing...the idea is to know the pickup pattern of the mic & put the wedge in a spot where the mic doesn't like to pickup. So, this advice is good for the 57's we're talking about, but asking for trouble with a Beta87.

As far as learning the M7CL, if you can run a DAW, it's not gonna very take long to learn it.

John, so essentially run through the solo of each pre-fader as quickly as possible to see if I can find the feedback?

Take a laptop DAW with Voxengo's Span on it with you. Patch it's input to mix 16 & omni 16 (or somewhere out of your way) & send the mic signals to it. Lock the DAW in record arm so it can pass signal to Span...this gives you a live FFT display of what all of the mics are doing. If something starts freaking out, Span will show the offending freq as a spike on the display & the board/Studio manager meters will (hopefully) show you which channel to fix up....or depending on the monitoring situation, which monitor mix is creating the problem.

todd

[shaddai]

Just noticed it looks like you're already taking a DAW with you :-)

[DannyL]

I agree with Mesadude: DON'T.

Start with something simpler. Like 1 or 2 guitars. Especially if this gig is important...to ANYBODY.

Even if you know the desk inside and out, without any experience mixing live sound, this can be a disaster in the making.

It will also really ruin your professional reputation for years to come. This is a very important consideration: do you want to be known as the kid that really "f***ed up the sound one night or as the young engineer who is conscientious and has real talent? You can only choose one, and option B does not have much room for error.

Get some experience on smaller simpler gigs and work your way up.
Live sound is completely different to working in a project studio. There are many places to go wrong and there is very little room for mistakes.

Regards;
Danny