Sound Devices 788T

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by boojum

For the record, other that John Willett who does not own or use a 788T, there are not many reports here of menu problems. I do not have a problem with the menus and have not. Yet this same old canard is trotted out at every possible opportunity.

As for the battery "problem" we have half a story presented, again, as a demonstration of a "problem." What would be useful would be to hear from the owner rather than a gossipy hearsay rehash.

For some reason SD folks do not snipe in Nagra threads. On a purely personal level I find the sniping boring and uniformly uninformative about the machine but very informative about the poster. Perhaps that is the lesson.

'Nuf said.

Originally Posted by John Willett

For the record, I am *not* sniping at all.

The 788T is an excellent machine and I have never said otherwise.

This was something that that came up on location while using several different machines.

The 788 menu is a long scroll and some people don't like it and a menu tree would be easier.

But it does not affect the quality of the machine or the recording - and - as I said, for an 8-track portable with 8 mic/line inputs, it's the best there is.

Please don't try and read what I'm not saying.

Having used all flavours of the SD 7 series, I can understand why some people find the menu a little awkward. It is awkward to scroll throuh 99 menu entries with a small wheel hidden in the portabrace bag, and when you're accidentally pressing the wheel, it doubles as an "OK" button. You'd better not accidentally press that wheel in the "Load Factory Settings" sub-menu!!! Yes, I've found out the hard way. No shortcut to undo that. No shortcut to edit scene name or metadata either. Scene name is the thing I need access to most often during the day.
On a Deva (yeah, another beast in the arena!), you have more of this often-used stuff accessible directly from the main screen. But in preparation, you can easily forget some entry - that's the good thing about the linear menu in the SD 7xx, where you just have to go to the first entry, edit to taste, and go on to next. If I remember correctly, the Nagra VI menu is more similar to the Deva's than to the SD's.

[David Rick]

I didn't really take John's post to be sniping. Though I don't own a 788T, I have owned a 744T for about 5 years, and the user interface is much different than one would find on a rackmount or desktop recorder. It's a function of the limited display size.

There's good reason for this: The display is on the side so that you can operate the recorder while it's slung over your shoulder. The display is small because the whole recorder is small.

Given the usage model and limitations, I think Sound Devices did a good job with the user interface. Yes, the menu is long, but you can zip through it quickly using the knob -- especially if you have enough familiarity to know approximately where different options are in the menu list. The most important functions are accessible by button presses, although many functions are "overloaded" onto the buttons and transport controls in various combinations. I make a point of reviewing the quick reference card before important sessions to remind myself of the most important shortcuts.

Casual users who can't be bothered to read the manual are not going to find these Sound Devices products particularly easy to use. More serious users will soon realize that the SD design team thought very carefully about how location recordists actually work and defined the usage model accordingly. They continue to tweek the firmware in light of user feedback.

Although one can do similar jobs with recorders from Sound Devices and Nagra, the fundamental assumptions behind each design are different and so are the resulting products.

I think the basic assumption behind the SD product line is that the users are professionals who will take time to learn their tools and have an expectation that those tools never fail under fire.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by David Rick

I didn't really take John's post to be sniping. Though I don't own a 788T, I have owned a 744T for about 5 years, and the user interface is much different than one would find on a rackmount or desktop recorder. It's a function of the limited display size.

There's good reason for this: The display is on the side so that you can operate the recorder while it's slung over your shoulder. The display is small because the whole recorder is small.

Given the usage model and limitations, I think Sound Devices did a good job with the user interface. Yes, the menu is long, but you can zip through it quickly using the knob -- especially if you have enough familiarity to know approximately where different options are in the menu list. The most important functions are accessible by button presses, although many functions are "overloaded" onto the buttons and transport controls in various combinations. I make a point of reviewing the quick reference card before important sessions to remind myself of the most important shortcuts.

Nagra and Deva follow the same portability concept, and have their displays and controls on one front panel as well.

Casual users who can't be bothered to read the manual are not going to find these Sound Devices products particularly easy to use. More serious users will soon realize that the SD design team thought very carefully about how location recordists actually work and defined the usage model accordingly. They continue to tweek the firmware in light of user feedback.

All of this applies to Nagra and Deva/Zaxcom as well. Actually it's easier to "just press record" with the 7xx than with a Deva.
Actually, SD's firmware updating comes a bit often. In the last 6 months, I worked with 3 rental 788s all with different firmware - and being used to the gain knobs activating tracks (which is one of the great things about SD!), it was quite surprising that on another machine the gain knobs didn't activate the tracks their inputs were routed to anymore.

Although one can do similar jobs with recorders from Sound Devices and Nagra, the fundamental assumptions behind each design are different and so are the resulting products.
I think the basic assumption behind the SD product line is that the users are professionals who will take time to learn their tools and have an expectation that those tools never fail under fire.

Basic assumption applies to Nagra and Deva as well. It's really about small details not necessarily required in all field recording situations, like extensive metadata editing, mirrored recording, data exchange (Deva's DVD burning capability is priceless!), maybe some DSP like EQ or limiters, sync options, menu access, and so on. One can get great results on any of these recorders after reading the manual and playing a bit.

[Arthur Stone]

Re: the menu - I have found that it becomes intuitive with use...my body subconsciously 'knows' where to stop the wheel.

[boojum]

A silly aside. Fifty years ago while in basic training in the army we had a fellow who was off the farm and who took huge steps. The army marches on a 30' step. This fellow just could not grasp that 30" step no matter how hard he tried.

A small group of us, about 20, were being practice marched one afternoon and in four steps this fellow was well out of step. The sergeant stopped us and restarted us many time but to no avail. This fellow just did not get that he was out of step and could not master being in step. In frustration the sergeant stopped us and walked over to the soldier, shook his hand and said, "Congratulations, soldier, you are the only man in step." The soldier was justifiably proud. Poor fellow, he just didn't get it. I doubt that he ever did.

The short version of this is, "A duck can hear but a duck can't listen."

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by meltemi

The copy function of the Nagra VI allows you to record on harddisk and do a background copy of your recording (channels selectable) on CF card at once.

I may have misunderstood my friend who has one. Thanks for the correction. Is this a change in recent firmware?

[David Spearritt]

I have now used a 702 and a 788 on quite a few gigs (my recording partner owns them) along with my Nagra V, and laptops running TCNear and Orpheus. The 788 is now familiar to me, finally, after wrestling with track assignments, mixes, MS or or off, panning etc along with the CL8.

Without considering its size for the moment, just purely comparing it to other tools for location classical recording, we still find the 788 somewhat fiddly and much harder to use than other devices. Trying the combinations of buttons, knob twiddling and pushing, the changing of buttons assignments, scrolling through the menus, focusing on feedback or indication of knob movement etc. If your setup changes throughout the night, recording many different gigs and combinations of active tracks, different MS channel assignments, different mix assignments, then you are going to be working hard. Sure you can find and do everything you ever want, but its not nearly as easy an experience as using the Orpheus of DAW interface to do the same thing, which is a dream in comparison.

But, considering its size and its use for ENG, film etc, another story can be told. It is a very powerful box, that once setup, is very productive. If you have a fairly fixed format of configuration to use, then you can take some time to set it up and let it run.

I remain unconvinced about these very small portable machines for serious classical location recording when you are producing and recording and changing config often and fast under pressure. I prefer a larger font and layout configuration, I still like a big control surface like a mixer or software mixer on a larger screen or surface on the table, and these little machines can only do 8 tracks, where more are often required.

But there is no question or their power and portability, or the quality.

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Is this a change in recent firmware?

Copy function was available from the very beginning (firmware version 1.2).
Had been moved from Tools menu to a higher menu level with firmware version 1.3

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by meltemi

Copy function was available from the very beginning (firmware version 1.2).
Had been moved from Tools menu to a higher menu level with firmware version 1.3

Page 33 of the user manual says...

The primary recording media is known as the “Working drive”. The Nagra VI is equipped with a built-in 120GB hard disk, and can also record to a removable compact flash card, both of which are considered as “drives”. It cannot record “simultaneously” to both media.

Does the autocopy function work around this? If so, can it automatically copy folders to CF that are automatically created, i.e. daily folders?

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

John, regarding their apparent difficulty using the menu, let me suggest that your challenged friends read about "Menu Shortcuts" in the user manual. Shortcuts make it easy to quickly select frequently-used options.

Thanks for that tip Michael. I sometimes use 702s and that's gonna be a timesaver. For what it's worth, I don't think the menu system is annoying; for me it was a surprisingly fast learn to judge how much I should turn the scroll wheel to get to a certain option. With the shortcuts it's gonna be a breeze whenever I get around to getting a four or more-channel SD.

[aracu]

"It is awkward to scroll throuh 99 menu entries with a small wheel hidden in the portabrace bag..."

The Sound Devices recorders can be configured to jump through the
menu to just the items you need to use, skipping all the rest, just
by pressing a button. You don't have to scroll through the menu.
Check out "Setup Menu Shortcuts" in the manual.

[summer_room]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

John, regarding their apparent difficulty using the menu, let me suggest that your challenged friends read about "Menu Shortcuts" in the user manual. Shortcuts make it easy to quickly select frequently-used options.

Oh wow, thanks! My 744 menu is now even easier than it was...
I never had a problem with this great piece of equipment!

-jon

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

I have now used a 702 and a 788 on quite a few gigs (my recording partner owns them) along with my Nagra V, and laptops running TCNear and Orpheus. The 788 is now familiar to me, finally, after wrestling with track assignments, mixes, MS or or off, panning etc along with the CL8.

Without considering its size for the moment, just purely comparing it to other tools for location classical recording, we still find the 788 somewhat fiddly and much harder to use than other devices. Trying the combinations of buttons, knob twiddling and pushing, the changing of buttons assignments, scrolling through the menus, focusing on feedback or indication of knob movement etc. If your setup changes throughout the night, recording many different gigs and combinations of active tracks, different MS channel assignments, different mix assignments, then you are going to be working hard. Sure you can find and do everything you ever want, but its not nearly as easy an experience as using the Orpheus of DAW interface to do the same thing, which is a dream in comparison.

But, considering its size and its use for ENG, film etc, another story can be told. It is a very powerful box, that once setup, is very productive. If you have a fairly fixed format of configuration to use, then you can take some time to set it up and let it run.

I remain unconvinced about these very small portable machines for serious classical location recording when you are producing and recording and changing config often and fast under pressure. I prefer a larger font and layout configuration, I still like a big control surface like a mixer or software mixer on a larger screen or surface on the table, and these little machines can only do 8 tracks, where more are often required.

But there is no question or their power and portability, or the quality.

Multitrack music recording isn't what the 7xx and its competitors were primarily designed for. A console (real or virtual) and DAW are way better suited.
When in music production 24 track hard-disc recorders were already commonly used, movie sound normally used DAT, and sometimes even analogue 1/4" tape allowing the sound mixer to feed the boom to one track and a mix of all lavs to the other. If you're quick and know the script, you don't need more tracks (and working that way really helps to find out what's important and what's not!). Iso tracks of each actor are a soundie luxury, but often are way too much "work" for some picture editors (who'd have to work with more than 2 audio tracks - OMG!!!!)
That's not to say that one can't use ENG recorders for music production. Some of the greatest classical recordings were mixed live to stereo using a good desk and a Nagra IV-S.
If I owned a 788, I'd probably be taking it out to smaller concert recordings as well, instead of two 4u racks with pres and backup recorder, and a DAW computer to record to.

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Page 33 of the user manual says...

The primary recording media is known as the “Working drive”. The Nagra VI is equipped with a built-in 120GB hard disk, and can also record to a removable compact flash card, both of which are considered as “drives”. It cannot record “simultaneously” to both media.

Does the autocopy function work around this? If so, can it automatically copy folders to CF that are automatically created, i.e. daily folders?

Nagra deliberately put "simultaneously" in quotation marks. The Autocopy process is not simultaneous in the sense, that harddisk and CF work absolutely in parallel. All tracks are primarily recorded on the selected working drive (normally harddisk). The auto back-up of the entire recording (or selected tracks) to a second drive (normally CF) is done in an additional background process at practically the same time.

Page 43 of the user manual says...
"The copy function has two principal functions which will be covered independently. The first is the “AUTOCOPY” feature for making a simultaneous back-up of each recording, and the second is the copying of files or folders at a later stage from one place to another."

"The items are copied to the destination drive maintaining the same index number and folder name. If the folder doesn't exist on the destination drive, it is automatically created."

I have to admit, that the Nagra VI Copy/Autocopy features may seem unusual to some. But IMHO they are very clever typical Nagra (find a different, better solution) features.

[MichaelPatrick]

meltemi,

For non-users this is confusing so your explanation is very helpful; i.e. Autocopy can create a background copy that's simultaneous with recording to the working drive.

A comforting thing about Nagra tradition is never to oversell something. That kind of integrity in marketing is rare and precious in my book. They let the engineers speak when nuance is required to say it accurately.

[Remoteness]

I want you folks to think long and hard about this...

I trust you will make the right decision...

You only have three options!

1. Get a room and be done with it; probably your best option.
2. Start your own forum and trash that to your heart's content.
3. Just chill out on this already; it's getting seriously boring and I'm done with it!

I mean, does every freakin' thread have to turn into this brouhaha?
I think not; get over it already!!!

I haven't given out any infractions in a real long time; please let me know when you need one or three; I got an itchy freakin' finger ready and willing to comply to your needs.

Keep in mind that I'm as serious as a heart attack.

Now, back to this otherwise awesome (informative) thread!

[philper]

Re: Nagra autocopy: That's how the original Deva worked with its DVDRAM drive, a method I thought was very clever. (All DSP used for recording when in record, backup copy made when the machine is in idle). I've always thought this was better approach to DVDRAM making (for instance) than how SD recorders work (real time), is more reliable and can use slower media.

Re: SD 7XX menus--you get used to them with time, and the shortcuts are very helpful. Odder and less immediately intuitive is the menu structure of the Cantar, but people get their minds around that pretty fast it seems, as well.

phil p

[boojum]

^^^^^ I agree. Accustoming oneself to a method makes it easy and understandable. There is nothing "intuitive" about the mouse/icon metaphor. It is easy to learn, however, and fortunately is the same on most platforms. Audio gear is not there, yet. So we learn how our hardware works and it becomes easy. The manuals are usually quite helpful, too. I find the 7xx screens easy enough but I have been using them for awhile. I use only a few of the functions and will change only the sampling bitrate, number of tracks and linking of tracks. Bit depth is a constant: 24 bit. So these menus are very simple for me. The firmware updates affect entries way past where I am operating in the menu.

Were I to change to another platform I would be damned to a few weeks of stumbling around until I got that system learned.

If it were easy the customer would do it himself.