St John's Smith, London • String Ensemble, Organ, Soloists • 3 x Questions

[pkautzsch]

Instead of the TLM I'd consider a small/compact mic for the spot. Giving them the smallest mic available is standard practice with classical singers, and especially since you said something about the client being a little visually concerned, it certainly is the way to go. As you seem to have access to a lot of different mics you might have a chance to get a Schoeps or Neumann KM100 system with extension tube, or an (older) Neumann KMF.

[Ozpeter]

The trouble is with mics and classical singers is that audiences always associate mics with sound reinforcement and the singer then thinks that the audience will think she can't work without a PA to help her. So lowest possible profile is necessary - or none at all. I think you will be surprised how low that main pair will end up... glad you've got more setup time now, that's pretty essential if using a new rig in a new location.

[pkautzsch]

Is it that bad with audiences? I'd guess that in London, audiences are used to seeing microphones without amplification, as BBC do lots of live recording there, and they surely use more than just a main pair!
Here in Munich, audiences are perfectly fine with seeing lots of microphones on stage. In some halls, most are flown, in others, it's all stands and lots of Colette extensions. Vocal soloists are mostly spot miked with stands, usually about breast height just over any scores they might hold in their hands. The most common mic is the Schoeps MK4 on a 1200mm Colette extension.
I've more often been asked why I did *not* give a singer a spot, when she was perfectly fine through the main pair...nowadays, I might just put up a spot without connecting the other end of the cable!

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Instead of the TLM I'd consider a small/compact mic for the spot. Giving them the smallest mic available is standard practice with classical singers, and especially since you said something about the client being a little visually concerned, it certainly is the way to go.

What about an MKH 8040 on a mic stand (no boom) at a low level, say for example 1m? It will not be obstructive.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Today I made a test with a 12m long rope both with the small and the big stereo bar (with mics and cables on) and I managed to put it up really fast. The whole construction worked very well and I could even slide the bar to one of the sides of the rope and change the angle/space between the mics for about a minute. This was useful too when I had to put the mics down. I could as well change the up/down orientation and the left/right position of the mics and point them exactly where I want, by using two long fishing lines. I really hope that it will all work as flawlessly on the day of the concert as is did today!

I used one of the metal connectors of 30A plastic electrical terminal to make a loop around the rails and pull out the excessive rope. In this way it is very easy to tighten up the rope. After the tension is right I put an additional cable grip, just to be on the safe side, as those cable connectors are not meant to hold heavy weights.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti

What about an MKH 8040 on a mic stand (no boom) at a low level, say for example 1m? It will not be obstructive.

Well, just use the smallest you can get...
Such a spot mic usually serves just to get a little more voice presence than the main pair gives you. The "sound" comes from the main pair.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by pkautzsch

Well, just use the smallest you can get...
Such a spot mic usually serves just to get a little more voice presence than the main pair gives you. The "sound" comes from the main pair.

Yes, I always try to get everything with 2 mics only (if possible). But what I am afraid is that I might end up with the main pair almost above the head of the soprano. In this case I'll probably need a bit more of that spot in the mix.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Dear Slutz,

Today I finally found some free time to post a sample of the concert. It would be interesting to hear your opinion about it. I consider my job as done well and I have to say that your help was very useful. Thanks again.

I have uploaded the sample in sendspace as I don't want it to stay here forever (customer doesn't want this so it will be deleted after 30days). It is a 44Khz/16bit WAV file.

The file is a mix of the main pair (mk21) and the hall/organ pair (mk2h) which was at about 20m behind the main one. I had a spot on the cellos and the harp which I used for some of the other tracks (but just a tiny bit). I used here the celli spot too but at some very low level (something like -35dB lower than the main pair). In this sample the hall pair is delayed by extra 680 samples (at 44Khz). I tried to align it spot on with the main but this resulted in a very unnatural sound with a lot of boom and lack of clarity in the high strings.

Will post some pics and some more info soon.
Cheers

Sample concert

[Sheikyearbouti]

Here are a few pictures as well.

I have to say that the concert was a challenge mainly because of the fact that the organ is at the back of the hall. It was quite difficult to judge how much reverberation is needed for each pair in the cans and I agree that it would have been completely different if I have had the BBC room available and monitors instead of headphones (for the room there was an extra charge so I had to forget about it).

The position of the organ was a big challenge for the performers too and this is why I am not posting a sample of the organ tracks
Otherwise, soundwise the result was good.

I started with the main pair close to the stage and above the head of the soprano and the sound was nice with a very good balance but quite dry. Blending it with the organ pair brought in some ambience but not enough according to my and my customer's taste. That's why I moved it back very close to where you guys suggested (see pictures). Now that gave a bit more of the room but changed the balance between the soprano and the ensemble in an undesirable way. I have to note that the soprano was extremely loud and although it was Bach that she was singing, she sung it as if it was Wagner - very operatic with a hugh vibrato and not baroque at all. At this point it was too late for any drastic adjustments so I simply had to accept what I had and record. After all if I wanted to achieve something better I had to somehow move the main pair UP but I was already at the highest position I could go. And since the sound of all other pieces was fine I decided not to risk and accept this compromise.

Now looking back I have to say that the idea of using omnis above the head of soprano was a very good guess and I had to go for it. It is strange but with the MK21 I simply didn't manage to get enough reverberation in the main pair at this distance. This wasn't too bad as I intentionally wanted a bit dryer sound because of the ambience picked-up by the second pair.
In addition the level of the organ in the MK21 pair was quite low so I had to use a lot of the organ "spots". And thanks god that I had this second pair as it kind of restored the balance when blended in with the main one and gave me the desired amount of reverberation.

[Larry Elliott]

Thanks so much for following up with a sample and pics of the concert.

I was surprised at the lack of reverberation on the sample, given that most CD's I have recorded here are great. The audience must have a huge effect.

A great effort though and an excellent thread.

Larry

[0VU]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

I was surprised at the lack of reverberation on the sample, given that most CD's I have recorded here are great. The audience must have a huge effect.

An audience does soak up a lot of the reverberation in SJSS, especially if it's a full house, and particularly if the balcony is full. The difference between an empty, rehearsal, balance and a well attended concert is quite marked. It's not only the level of ambience which changes but the timbre of the ambience also changes, with a noticeable reduction in the HF content of the reverb compared to the empty hall.

Still a lovely venue for chamber music.

[Larry Elliott]

Thanks 0VU.

Looking more carefully at the photographs there doesnt seem to be much in the way of upholstery on the seats which might help the balance between empty and occupied RT.

Given how nice it sounds I would like to get some acoustical measurements from the hall, but no one that I have approached have any.

Larry

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

Thanks so much for following up with a sample and pics of the concert.

I was surprised at the lack of reverberation on the sample, given that most CD's I have recorded here are great. The audience must have a huge effect.

A great effort though and an excellent thread.

Larry

You are welcome Larry.
Do you really think that the recording like this is too dry, so much that it doesn't sound good? I personally like it, though I think that it could have been better. But you know, sometimes it is not that easy to be objective regarding your own work.

0VU, I understand that you do a lot of recordings there. In such cases do you usually use a stand or you fly? I had serious problems with the balance between the soprano and the rest of the ensemble and I think that a higher position of the mics would have been a much better option (unfortunately I simply couldn't use a stand for this concert) - maybe a pair of omnis high up and close to the edge of the stage.

Larry, Here is a sample of the hall pair only and a picture of the actual amount of audience during the concert - you will be surprised!
I have attached a picture of the seats so that you can see the material the upholstery is made of (I remember it was some kind of synthetic material which I guess doesn't absorb much).

You will find as well attachment of the hall pair for the same snippet I uploaded in sendspace. Bear in mind the the MK2Hs were pointed at the back of the hall to capture the organ and that those are at about 20-25m away from the stage. The spacing was about 75cm.

BTW another thing is the I used for a first time the audioroot 2ch preamp and it was for this pair. It is a transformer balanced pre (Lundahl LL1587). In general I have to say this is an excellent portable pre and I really liked it's sound. Compared to the Grace V3 it gave less transients, attenuated the highs a bit and it add this somehow warmer and fat colour to the sound which I liked. I am quite happy with it's performance.

Now one thing I have to mention about it is that I had a strange clipping which occurred at about -5dBFS in the digital domain (see pictures). Thus I had to set the gain a bit lower than usual to avoid clipping the applause of the audience (though I still did a bit ). Maybe someone will be able to put some light on the case. I though that it is the internal headroom of the pre which probably is a bit lower than the Grace due to the transformer design.
If you look at picture N3 (applause) you will see the way the Grace on top having no problems with the transients and the Audioroot on the bottom clipping.

[pkautzsch]

That's a great orchestra sound! Yes, on the dry side of things, but I think it's fine. You get just enough reverb to feel the room.
This hall mic sounds quite nice too. Still a lot of direct sound in there. If it wasn't for the typical coloration MK2s impart to sound from the rear, this could very well be the main pair. Maybe you could try mixing the 21s in just enough to give a little more focus and lessen the slightly metallic MK2 rear sound.
My main pairs *usually* end up above soloists' heads, and if it's only one singer it's usually a stereo spot. It takes too much time for a typical remote gig to find the spot where orchestra is balanced in itself AND with the soloists, and often you need to be higher than you can - as you found out.
BTW: If the soprano is too loud in the room pair, then she probably was singing too loud. Then it's garbage I/O.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti

You are welcome Larry.
Do you really think that the recording like this is too dry, so much that it doesn't sound good? I personally like it, though I think that it could have been better.

I didn't mean to infer that the recording was not good - I think it is great. My comment was only related to the reverberation that I am used to hearing in this venue. 0VU has confirmed that the audience does have a marked effect on the reverberation. The close up of the seating indicates a reason why this might happen. The cover looks like vinyl which will not provide much residual absorption that might balance out the effect of an audience.

[Ozpeter]

Sounds like SJSS to me - which is as it should be! Nice one, congratulations on a task done with care and forethought.

[Sheikyearbouti]

This is how it will finally end up on the CD. I can now put a short snippet here as an mp3. The difference is that there is less of the mk2h in the mix and less delay on it (only 220 samples as opposed to 620 before). All this makes the sound less blurred and boomy. I compensated a for the dryness of the recording by using a bit of the harp spot panned hard centre (no harp in this sample). It was a MKH8040 facing at the back of the stage with it's "deaf side" towards the orchestra so it picked up some nice ambience there.

[mathieujm]

Well done

JMM

[AntManBee]

I recall reading that John Eliot Gardiner's DG recordings of the Mozart piano concertos with Malcolm Bilson were made at SJSS using only a stereo pair placed above the conductor's head, although it seems improbable that the fortepiano didn't have its own mics. That would, of course, have been in an empty hall.

It's been a long time since the BBC had a room at SJSS - they moved their Lunchtime Concerts to the Wigmore Hall since when SJSS has become somewhat moribund.

Henry Wood Hall is still considered the best classical recording venue in London, despite the creaking roof and noises from the square outside, but it's a shame that Kingsway Hall is gone...

[John Willett]

The Menuhin Hall is still my favourite, though.

[AntManBee]

It's great that the Menuhin Hall is soundproofed and Ambie is pragmatic about rates, but the jury still seems to be out amongst the record companies. And it's too small for orchestral recordings. Personally I think HWH is still unbeatable in the London area - I've been at sessions from solo violin to symphony orchestra there and everything sounds great. Kings Place is (sadly) a failure.

[Ozpeter]

How about the Cadogan Hall? (If I'm recalling the name correctly). That emerged after I left the UK so I've never seen it, though I heard it over here on the proms and it sounded fine.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

How about the Cadogan Hall? (If I'm recalling the name correctly). That emerged after I left the UK so I've never seen it, though I heard it over here on the proms and it sounded fine.

I've been there but not recorded there. It seems a nice hall, round the corner from Sloane Square.


Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[Unique]

Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti

This is how it will finally end up on the CD. I can now put a short snippet here as an mp3. The difference is that there is less of the mk2h in the mix and less delay on it (only 220 samples as opposed to 620 before). All this makes the sound less blurred and boomy. I compensated a for the dryness of the recording by using a bit of the harp spot panned hard centre (no harp in this sample). It was a MKH8040 facing at the back of the stage with it's "deaf side" towards the orchestra so it picked up some nice ambience there.

Quite a very sharp difference in between sample.mp3 and earlier Hall.wav.

A lot of disturbing cracking, squeaking or musician moving noise is audible on sample.mp3 while the depth of the hall and lower register is a lot less represented compared to Hall.wav.

Single 2 or 4-way thin multipaire cable (Neumann) would be less weight on microphone suspension and would have a reduced visual impact.

[Sheikyearbouti]

Originally Posted by Unique

Quite a very sharp difference in between sample.mp3 and earlier Hall.wav.

A lot of disturbing cracking, squeaking or musician moving noise is audible on sample.mp3 while the depth of the hall and lower register is a lot less represented compared to Hall.wav.

Single 2 or 4-way thin multipaire cable (Neumann) would be less weight on microphone suspension and would have a reduced visual impact.

I would have been very surprised if there wasn't such a big difference. The hall.wav is a sample only of the organ mics and the sample.mp3 is a mix of both pairs. The hall pair was actually placed to capture the organ for the other tracks played (read the rest of the thread) and thus it was pointing at the back of the hall. Hence its shaved in the HFs sound.
I couldn't mix more of it with the main pair because of the unnatural coloration it was adding (too boomy, less clarity, too much accent on the cellos, etc.).

The squeaky noises are there because of the musicians, not me. I can't do anything if a musician drops his pen on the floor during the quietest moment of the musical piece or swings on his chair as if it as dance show. And even there where software like Izotope RX could have made miracles, the very first question which comes to my mind really is: I am going to be paid for all the time spent cleaning it or should I better get rid of the big stuff, where possible, and carry on with another project?