Berliner Philharmoniker hall's reverb. Listen.

[GIACOMO-_]

Hi,

this reverb is fantastic. Listen this solo horn, although it is alone it seems to evoke. Very beautyful.
How it is possible to recreate this reveber ? How many seconds are decay ?

[sonare]

Originally Posted by GIACOMO-_

How it is possible to recreate this reveber ?

Buy Altiverb from AudioEase

Rich

[GIACOMO-_]

I dont like software reverbs. How I car recreate thi reverb with my TC M3000 ?

[sonare]

A TC M3000 is no different. IR reverbs are just as good if not better. They are certainly easier.

Download the Altiverb demo and try it. Then try to get something similar with your TC and decide.

Rich

[littledoodler]

lexicon native bundle. demo it. best reverb plugin out there.

[PoxyMusic]

Thread Hijack:

My daughter's piano teacher tells me that French Horn players tend to be a bit odd. "Stuntmen of the Orchestra" she calls them.

Any truth to this?

Back on topic...that reverb made me melt into my chair. I really love Altiverb, it sounds great but obviously it's never going to be the real thing. Close enough for most of my work though.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

Thread Hijack:

My daughter's piano teacher tells me that French Horn players tend to be a bit odd. "Stuntmen of the Orchestra" she calls them.

Any truth to this?

I have to wonder how much exposure to orchestral horn players a child's piano teacher has had. If the comment is about agility on the instrument, then what does that make a tubist (who have equal agility at the major orchestra level)?

that reverb made me melt into my chair. I really love Altiverb, it sounds great but obviously it's never going to be the real thing. Close enough for most of my work though.

I am wondering why this is "obvious"? Most listeners cannot hear the difference between real and virtual, if the virtual is adjusted properly. Altiverb actually has several IRs of "Berlin Philharmonie" and it is worth noting that the orchestra went to "Jesus Christus Kirche" with Karajan and others during the DG glory years.

Rich

[JonesH]

Only thing that's missing from most impulse reverbs are modulation and randomization functions. Because of the nature of convolution the IR of even a modulation-heavy lexicon will be modulation-free.

[Teddy Ray]

SIR reverb is just as good as any, and it is free.

SIR: News

Noisevault Studio and Convolution Forums - ReMOSitory

KVR :: View topic - free Impulse Responses


CKSDE- Download - Impulse Response Files
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fokkie/IR.htm#claustrofobia
http://noisevault.com/nv/index.php?o...tory&Itemid=29

http://www.spiritcanyonaudio.com./sp...relativity.php
Acoustics Engineering - Dirac Examples

http://www.1-1-1-1.net/pages/impulse...htm#impulsemod
Beamsonic's Impulses

http://homepage.hispeed.ch/zidee/
http://www.cksde.com/f_6_250.htm
http://www.echochamber.ch/

Free Reverb Impulse Responses - Voxengo
index

[rwhealey]

According to Concert Halls and Opera Houses by Leo Beranek, the mid frequency reverberation time of the Berlin Philharmonie Hall is 1.9 seconds - fully occupied.

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by sonare

I have to wonder how much exposure to orchestral horn players a child's piano teacher has had.

She played in an orchestra for many years...Carpal Tunnel spelled an end to her professional playing.

I said it was obvious that it could never be the real thing because...well...it's obvious!

[GIACOMO-_]

Originally Posted by rwhealey

According to Concert Halls and Opera Houses by Leo Beranek, the mid frequency reverberation time of the Berlin Philharmonie Hall is 1.9 seconds - fully occupied.

Thank you! Beautyful book!

[jnorman]

the new version of the bricasti IRs available for free at samplicity includes the berliner hall IRs. as teddy mentioned, SIR free version works great with these and a zillion other free IRs out there these days. though as much as i like the bricasti IRs, the ones i use the most are from the 480L and TC6000 IR sets (cant remember where i found them...)

[ISedlacek]

Berliner Hall is on Bricasti as well (whether it has something to do with this place or not, I don t know). But one thing I know for sure, that all these software reverbs (Altiverb, Sir etc.) sound quite inferior to real Bricasti etc.

[JonesH]

Some part of that might be randomization and modulation which at least lexicon relies a bit on. It's not possible to do time/level-dependent components with normal convolution.

[Casey]

There is no pitch modulation in a hall.

I can almost promise you that this performer would not appreciate any pitch modulation being added artificially!

Lovely sounding space! True.



-Casey

[JonesH]

I obviously defer to your expertise in the matter, but then I don't understand for instance the 960L manual stating that randomization/modulation is used to avoid metallic coloration of the reverb tails, nor spin and wander parameters adding random fluctuations as well.

[Casey]

Originally Posted by JonesH

I don't understand for instance the 960L manual stating that randomization/modulation is used to avoid metallic coloration of the reverb tails, nor spin and wander parameters adding random fluctuations as well.

I'm not sure I understand how this relates to the OP's question regarding the sound in a very nice hall.

Your comment indicates that you may be confusing the needs of some reverb technologies with the reality of actual acoustic spaces. The notion of pitch modulation in real halls is a bit of marketing spin, used to cover the requirements of those reverb technologies.

Staying on point, there is no pitch modulation in this performance (as far as I can tell via Youtube audio.) The OP is asking specifically how to recreate the reverb he hears on this video. So clearly pitch modulation is not a required ingredient in the response to the OP.

If your thoughts center around IR reverb VS algorithmic reverb there are reasons why IRs can be a poor substitute. But the lack of pitch modulation is not one of them.



-Casey

[Casey]

Another point worth mentioning when listening to hall recordings is to make sure that judgements are made only when the hall acoustic enhancement electronics are turned off.

A surprising number of venues use the artificial LARES system to enhance the reverb within the hall. The LARES algorithm that is used is one of the most god-awful pitch modulation machines on the planet.

If any analysis shows that a hall recording exhibits pitch modulation, this is absolutely the reason why. It is physically impossible for natural hall acoustics to create pitch modulation.



-Casey

[seancostello]

Originally Posted by Casey

A surprising number of venues use the artificial LARES system to enhance the reverb within the hall. The LARES algorithm that is used is one of the most god-awful pitch modulation machines on the planet.

Is this due to having the LARES in a feedback loop, or is it part of the LARES algorithm itself? I'll probably never get my hands on one of these machines, so any insight you have is useful.

Speaking of LARES, a couple of CCRMA-ites came up with a new technique for augmenting the reverb of a space that seems interesting:

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~eberdahl...2010Reverb.pdf

I love the idea of sonic "portholes."

If any analysis shows that a hall recording exhibits pitch modulation, this is absolutely the reason why. It is physically impossible for natural hall acoustics to create pitch modulation.

What if the musicians are on a trapeze, Casey? Or the sound recorder guy is riding a bike? HUH? Seriously, you need to think before you post...

[Casey]

Originally Posted by seancostello

Seriously, you need to think before you post...

Well yes you got me there! And yes LARES, particularly the early bits, are heavily pitch modulated to maximize gain before feedback. We can talk more on geekslutz perhaps?



-Casey

[Casey]

And now to the OP, GIACOMO,

If you would care to do so, arrange for a demo of the M7, and I will nail that reverb for you.



-Casey

[dseetoo]

The sound bouncing back from the walls of the hall never stays at quite the same frequency. Another word, the natural reverb always has some built in random pitch shift. It is very easy to understand as why this phenomenon exists. Within a big hall, there is always some air current that is constantly moving due to small temperature change as well as natural barometric pressure change, forget about what A/C system could add to the whole mix. The small amount of air current and temperature variance in the body of air will change the speed of the sound in which it has to travel through, thus the random pitch change as the reverb finally reaches your ears. You can observe this effect by using a tuning strobe in the hall and play a short steady note, generated by a tone generator and then watch what happens to the tuning strobe after you shut off the generator. This randomness is very necessary in a well-designed reverb system, regardless what technology it is based on.



All the best,

Da-Hong Seetoo

[Casey]

Originally Posted by dseetoo

The small amount of air current and temperature variance in the body of air will change the speed of the sound in which it has to travel through,

Your premise is correct...

Originally Posted by dseetoo

thus the random pitch change as the reverb finally reaches your ears.

But your conclusion is wrong. The change of speed only changes the time and direction of arrival, never the pitch.



-Casey

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Casey

The change of speed only changes the time and direction of arrival, never the pitch.

If there is a change of the sound speed within the duration of a pure frequency tone so that the mean speed along the path from the source to the microphone at which the wave front of the tone beginning is propagating is different from the mean speed of the wave font at the tone end, then the tone duration received by the microphone is different from the tone duration transmitted by the source. As a consequence of this time compression or expansion there is a positive or negative shift of the frequency of the output signal from the microphone with respect to the frequency of the source, analogous to the Doppler effect encountered when the source and the microphone have a relative motion. This frequency shift is a pitch change.

Back to the topic. Here attached a piano recording made at home in 4 versions:
* dry,
* processed by means of a Bricasti M2 by someone to whom I send the dry file ,
* processed by myself by means of convolution with Bricasti IR,
* processed by myself by means of aether.
The 3 reverb versions are using a Berlin Hall preset. I adjusted by ear the wet amount of both plugin-processed versions so that to get a result close to the Bricasti version.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Casey

I'm not sure I understand how this relates to the OP's question regarding the sound in a very nice hall.

Your comment indicates that you may be confusing the needs of some reverb technologies with the reality of actual acoustic spaces. The notion of pitch modulation in real halls is a bit of marketing spin, used to cover the requirements of those reverb technologies.

Staying on point, there is no pitch modulation in this performance (as far as I can tell via Youtube audio.) The OP is asking specifically how to recreate the reverb he hears on this video. So clearly pitch modulation is not a required ingredient in the response to the OP.

If your thoughts center around IR reverb VS algorithmic reverb there are reasons why IRs can be a poor substitute. But the lack of pitch modulation is not one of them.



-Casey

No, were actually just a few degrees off in our communication - my bad. I interpreted the OP as wanting to know how to artificially recreate the reverberation of a certain hall, and I mentioned that some algorithmic units rely in part on randomization and modulation, while most IR reverbs can't use that.
I was not talking about pitch modulation in real halls, but keep up that interesting discussion as well

Also interesting comments about LARES. Thanks.

[Casey]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

If there is a change of the sound speed within the duration of a pure frequency tone so that the mean speed along the path from the source to the microphone at which the wave front of the tone beginning is propagating is different from the mean speed of the wave font at the tone end, then the tone duration received by the microphone is different from the tone duration transmitted by the source. As a consequence of this time compression or expansion there is a positive or negative shift of the frequency of the output signal from the microphone with respect to the frequency of the source, analogous to the Doppler effect encountered when the source and the microphone have a relative motion. This frequency shift is a pitch change.

This is true, and theoretically you have proven me wrong :( , But this has little practical relevance because the speed of sound overwhelms the speed of air circulation within the venue. To the point that the human ability to perceive such a small pitch change does not exist, so the pitch change itself does not exist for the listener.



-Casey

[GIACOMO-_]

Originally Posted by JonesH

No, were actually just a few degrees off in our communication - my bad. I interpreted the OP as wanting to know how to artificially recreate the reverberation of a certain hall, and I mentioned that some algorithmic units rely in part on randomization and modulation, while most IR reverbs can't use that.
I was not talking about pitch modulation in real halls, but keep up that interesting discussion as well

Also interesting comments about LARES. Thanks.

Yes! I've only a TC M3000 or Lexicon LXP1.

But discussion its very interesting.

[dseetoo]

Originally Posted by Casey

This is true, and theoretically you have proven me wrong :( , But this has little practical relevance because the speed of sound overwhelms the speed of air circulation within the venue. To the point that the human ability to perceive such a small pitch change does not exist, so the pitch change itself does not exist for the listener.



-Casey

To whose ability? Yours alone, I assume.
As I stated earlier, you can observe the pitch shift with some electronic tuning instrument if you insist you can’t hear the difference.
By the way, this is the same phenomenon as one looks in front of his car into some distance on a highway and what he sees will appear as waving around in random fashion.


Da-Hong Seetoo

[Casey]

Originally Posted by dseetoo

As I stated earlier, you can observe the pitch shift with some electronic tuning instrument if you insist you can’t hear the difference.

Yes, I agree this is true. I believe that you will find pitch shifts of around 0.001 to 0.0005 Hz at say 1000 Hz. This is orders of magnitude below the level of human perception of around 0.35Hz.

You and didier.brest state the case very well, so it makes me curious! What are your findings? Do you feel that this is an audible phenomenon? I am just stating my beliefs that are based on work done years ago. Maybe I need to revisit my work!



-Casey