Affiliations and such...

[Remoteness]

There seems to be a lot of brewhaha about whether or not it's cool to work (or to have worked) for a company that you may actually (really) like their gear.

Our group skirmish about this topic seems to make a few good points, but does it apply to everyone?

Is it black and white or is there a grey area and (if so) how large is this grey area?

If you honestly enjoy the quality of a piece of equipment, should you not talk about it because you may have worked at the factory, or was a sale tech or something to that affect?

...and, what if you went out with the owner's daughter or son?
Should you hold back what you really feel (good or bad) about the line?
We're not talking about prejudgment; you know and like the stuff you own and work with!

I say it's okay to discuss this fact as long as it's the truth.

I mean, why not trust, but verify the claims?
Our ears should always be the final answer and resolve. Right?





So, if some folk worked (or works) at or with a manufacturer and they seriously were into a particular device (that manufacturer made) and you happen to agree with them, is that a no-no because they're affiliated with said company?

I understand if you disagree, because you can always say that they're here to push the product line or something to that affect.






And, what's wrong with being bias towards the gear you own and love anyway?

Furthermore, why is it easier to believe folks that dislike a particular device that their former employer manufactured?

IMHO, we should spend more time listening than reading.
The most important tools we have and use each and everyday are our ears.
Let us make our own opinion and stop pointing fingers just because it's convenient.

Thank you for your time and consideration on this important matter at hand.

Enjoy the forum at your own risk;-)

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

If you honestly enjoy the quality of a piece of equipment, should you not talk about it because you may have worked at the factory, or was a sale tech or something to that affect?

I say it's okay to discuss this fact as long as it's the truth.

Personally i dont like anything getting in the way of hearing someones genuine feelings on things.. As long as someone isnt just whinging for the sake of it and can still identify and express the positives they see also.. I dont like situations where you may feel a certain way but are forced to tow the line against your gut feelings.. But so many things work that way unfortunately..

Originally Posted by Remoteness

So, if some folk worked (or works) at a manufacturer and they seriously were into a particular device (that manufacturer made) and you happen to agree, is that a no-no?

I understand if you disagree, because you can always say that they're here to push that product line or something to that affect.

before i had worked in a sales position i was somewhat naive about the motivations of sales people.. While i knew they were expected to sell things i didnt realise how motivated they are by their own interests and KPI's.. If you walk into a store and ask to buy an audio interface for a computer, once you have qualified the basic specs the first thing most salesmen will do is take you straight towards whatever has the most profit or commision bonuses.

I was shocked to realise just how bad this is.. I would have thought the first emphasis is on making a sale with proven reliable products and keeping the customers happy, but the priorities were selling the brand that the store was getting largest kick backs from. And if that happened to be the better product well thats a nice finishing touch, but if its the shittiest product that still made the most profit well thats what got sold..

Same with sales reps.. If a companies product is found to have a problem, rather than recall it or stop selling remaining stock, the companies often give commision bonuses for the reps to dump that item and the stores buying them get extra rebates etc..

A lot of the culture is motivated by self interests.. Its that type of thing that often makes it hard to guage the motivations of people with affiliations.. Its not as bad when you see feedback online i guess but as a consumer i personally still prefer to speak to people with no affiliations because you cannot know exactly whats happening behind the scenes.

[Corran]

If you are talking to a stranger, like a salesperson at the local Guitar Center, then yeah I can see how they might have all these self-interest things going on, skewing their opinion.

However, if you know a salesperson and you trust them, you would probably trust their opinion on gear when you ask them. Not all salespeople are stuck on the commission; my first job was in sales and I sold a ton of trumpets from one company that just made nice trumpets at a great price, rather than the most expensive.

Anyway, on the forum, I judge a person's opinions on what I have seen them post. I've gotten to know a number of people, and it's the people I trust whose opinions I listen to the most. If I saw a poster praising only Company A products over and over, I would distrust them.

I guess a newbie asking a question has nothing to go by though and might be swayed by a person with ulterior motives. Personally, I think a lot of gear opinions should be accompanied with a recording done with the gear in question. I know that's not always possible though.

[boojum]

If someone has had a long affiliation with a product they can be assumed to be biased, unless their are perfect. We are all biased in some degree. I am biased in favor of the gear I own. I bought it because I prefer it over other brands. I made the most judicious decisions I could in my purchases for gear to suit my needs. I evaluated many, many other opinions and cranked in a few other factors. I have not been disappointed in any purchase.

I am not affiliated with any company. Some of us are affiliated and I think it would be appropriate if that were clearly stated. Judges recuse themselves in a conflict of interest case. People who are biased often make that clear at the outset of an opinion. I try to when I share about gear and wish others would do so, too. It seems to me that posing as a disinterested party when that is not the case is just a bit misleading. If I am wrong in this please correct me.

I use Sound Devices recorders. If I had had an affiliation with them as an employee I would be sure to preface remarks about them and other recorders accordingly. If I were supplied with gear from a manufacturer I would preface my remarks with that so that other people would be clear that what I am saying may not be objective. It is the decent thing to do.

[joelpatterson]

I am all about the "demonstrate what you're saying with a recording showing what you mean" idea...

That's such an obvious way to cement your point I wonder why it isn't always done most every time?

But Bryan has the gist of the matter: the person doing the talking has to have earned your trust, some way or another. I keep a runny tally, somewhere in the back of my mind, of what kind of "character profile" I've seen on display, and I do this in every realm of life-- posters on internet forums, salespeople in stores, everyone.

Even the way you praise or diss things has a way of revealing your true intentions and motives, and it doesn't take alot of sophistication to see right through some people.

[Remoteness]

I like where we're going with this discussion.
Well done folks; very strong.

[Teddy Ray]

I trust John Willett, and think a lot of him from what i've seen here. I have no doubts about his motives or anything like that..

that being said, listing affiliations is just the professional thing to do, the right thing to do. Complete transparency. Class move by him to list them!

[rumleymusic]

I don't trust sales people. But that is different than having an affiliation with a certain company in my book. I have never taken the person in question's advice as anything other than first hand advice. No different than someone who has been working with a certain product for many years. However, I won't trust a dealer's praise of a product because their aim is to sell it to you.

I also think that attempts to disregard opinions based on (non-dealer)affiliation are just low blow arguments to gain the upper hand in a debate.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I like where we're going with this discussion.
Well done folks; very strong.

But-- but-- you are affiliated with this forum! That's exactly what you would say!

[studer58]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I trust John Willett, and think a lot of him from what i've seen here. I have no doubts about his motives or anything like that..

that being said, listing affiliations is just the professional thing to do, the right thing to do. Complete transparency. Class move by him to list them!

Agree fully, and let's just explore what we mean by 'affiliations' a little. If I derive income from selling or endorsing a product, I'm affiliated to them...indeed it's probably part of my job description to promote my employer's product (although I may equally choose not to do, outside of working hours !) However if I've purchased an item and find it suits my needs perfectly...or a poster here requests information on a product I believe I can give advice on through first hand experience....I'm going to refer to it here with no expectation of gain from that company or manufacturer...hence, that passes the 'no affiliation" test ? Is that roughly the vibe we're pursuing here ? I paid the 'going rate' to Mick Hinton for my BG8 a few years ago and I'm happy to relate what a great workhorse it's been for me, but that doesn't make me 'affiliated' to DAV in any way.

[Remoteness]

And, I'm extremely biased about it;-)

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

But-- but-- you are affiliated with this forum! That's exactly what you would say!

[studer58]

Oops, forgot to add that a 'salesman with affiliations' would be ill-advised to set up shop in this forum anyway, since it's full of sceptics and experienced audio folks who've seen gimmicks, trends and fads go past over years or decades. As many have already noted, you're going to be judged by your track record here, not by an ability to rattle off smooth sales talk for a quick sale. You'd have a much better chance of that in other forums...or on the Great Wide 'Net generally !

[Remoteness]

I feel that same vibe.

Originally Posted by studer58

Agree fully, and let's just explore what we mean by 'affiliations' a little. If I derive income from selling or endorsing a product, I'm affiliated to them...indeed it's probably part of my job description to promote my employer's product (although I may equally choose not to do, outside of working hours !) However if I've purchased an item and find it suits my needs perfectly...or a poster here requests information on a product I believe I can give advice on through first hand experience....I'm going to refer to it here with no expectation of gain from that company or manufacturer...hence, that passes the 'no affiliation" test ? Is that roughly the vibe we're pursuing here ? I paid the 'going rate' to Mick Hinton for my BG8 a few years ago and I'm happy to relate what a great workhorse it's been for me, but that doesn't make me 'affiliated' to DAV in any way.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

<snip>


Even the way you praise or diss things has a way of revealing your true intentions and motives, and it doesn't take alot of sophistication to see right through some people.

Joel, you are quite right. The gear fluffer(s) on the board are evident. The bias is known and noted; the opinions are accordingly discounted. Eventually it is a "net sum zero gain." Makes one wonder why the fluffing continues.

[Teddy Ray]

what I don't understand..

how hard is it to list these things in your profile? takes what, 20 seconds?

there is nothing to lose.

I don't get why anyone would choose NOT to?

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by boojum

... Makes one wonder why the fluffing continues.

I think we can trace that answer back to this guy --->

[Remoteness]

Just a regular bumkin he is;-)

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I think we can trace that answer back to this guy --->

[Nobilmente]

I guess a fluffer has to be someone with a monetary interest in a product, right?

Or is a fluffer someone who praises gear he doesn't use, but which is based on its higher cost?

All of these new words - and I'm still trying to work out how to write capitals on my mobile - so much to learn, so little time.

[Stuartd]

I see nothing wrong in someone being affililated with a product (e.g. working for the company) and also praising that product. It's how it's done that determines the legitimacy of it for me.

I can generally get a good feel for whether someone is 'pushing' a company product by the way they provide the description of said product.

One of my tests for a salesperson, when shopping for a product, is to observe whether they constantly bash the competition (as some sales people seem to do); or instead, to see if they focus on what their product willl do for me, while providing me with details, both pro and con about their product (because I don't believe there are too many products that are 100% perfect in every way).

Stu

edit:
ebulb wrote:

before i had worked in a sales position i was somewhat naive about the motivations of sales people.. While i knew they were expected to sell things i didnt realise how motivated they are by their own interests and KPI's.. If you walk into a store and ask to buy an audio interface for a computer, once you have qualified the basic specs the first thing most salesmen will do is take you straight towards whatever has the most profit or commision bonuses.

I have experienced this on several occasions. The worst experience was when I tried to buy an amplifier for my home stereo. I told the salesrep right up front that this purchase was unplanned (my amp quit on my that morning so had to buy another on short notice) therefore I was only interested in entry level equipment with respect to price. He proceeded to take me into the high end room and immediately tried to sell me one of his high-end amps. To make a long story short, he tried to sell me a $12,000.00 home theatre system...knowing full well I only wanted to purchase a $400.00 entry level amp to replace the one that failed that morning! Even as he was ringing up the sale he was still trying to convince me to spring for the Home Theater system! I never went back to that store.

There are sales reps who want the fast money, so will try to sell you the most expensive product in the store at every opportunity.

And then there are the sales reps that want your repeat business. It's this latter type of rep I want to deal with, and I have no problems dealing with them and listening to them describe gear that is also in their best interests to sell (affiliations, etc)...as long as they keep some perspective, and continute to treat me as a potential repeat customer.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Stuartd

I see nothing wrong in someone being affililated with a product (e.g. working for the company) and also praising that product.

I don't either.....as long as they list the affiliations.

[Remoteness]

And, truly believe in what they say about the product.

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I don't either.....as long as they list the affiliations.

[joelpatterson]

How about just hooking them up to a lie detector?

[Remoteness]

The problem is a good lire can fool a lie detector kost of the time.

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

How about just hooking them up to a lie detector?

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

And, truly believe in what they say about the product.

Yessir, lot of that going round too, it seems.

Particularly with the SM7!

[aracu]

People tend to express their true beliefs. Sometimes we question why someone believes something. There are very few facts, and the mind always searches for beliefs to cling to. The best salesman or con artist really believes what they are saying (and their survival might depend on the belief).We are all guilty of this to some degree, living in sell and consume town, where a person who never sells anything is sent down the river.

[Remoteness]

Dagnabbit, back to the drawing board on that concept.

Originally Posted by aracu

People tend to express their true beliefs. Sometimes we question why someone believes something. There are very few facts, and the mind always searches for beliefs to cling to. The best salesman or con artist really believes what they are saying (and their survival might depend on the belief).We are all guilty of this to some degree, living in sell and consume town, where a person who never sells anything is sent down the river.