Jazz Quartet Recording (with lots of mics and preamps)

[memuzo]

Hi all,

I'll like to get some advice, inspiration and guidance through your experiences. I'll be recording a jazz quartet next week. I just had a chance to work with lot of mic,preamp (whick actually confused me) in a big live room that is professionally treated in acoustics and has one booth.

The band will consist of, guitar (with vocals), upright bass, drums and piano.

1- For which one you'd suggest me to record in the booth?
I will have seperators for avoiding the leakage in the live room.

2-What kind of setup do you reccomend? Which instruments with which mics to which preamps for better sound.
For getting the best result I can, I have:

*MICS
Neumann M149 (2)
Neumann U87Ai (2)
Neumann KM184 (2)
Earthworks QTC1 (2)
Royer SF-1 Ribbon mics (2)
DPA(B&K) microphones 4006 (2)
AKG C414BTLII (4)
AKG D112
Shure PZM
Shure SM57 (7)
Shure Beta 58A (3)
Sennheiser 421 (3)

*OUTBOARD GEAR AND MIC PREAMPS
Grace Design (8ch.)
Manley Labs (2ch.)
Millenia Media (2ch.)
Great River MP2NV (2ch.)
Manley Voxbox (2)

3-Compression during tracking?

4- anything to add, always welcome

Thank you very much,
M.

[Jabbaz]

I recently played piano in a similar ensemble for an album we were recording.

The engineer had the drums setup in the booth (makes sense given the tendency for drums to bleed into other mics) with gobos between all the other instruments.

Before I go any further, I have to say I didn't like the result. The sound was very disjointed and gave the impression that each instrument was an island (although each instrument sounded great). The performance suffered from having us all spread out in the live room and having the drummer in a booth. We have since recorded on-stage in an auditorium with lower quality equipment and acoustics - though the sound quality suffered slightly, the end product was leagues ahead of the studio sessions in terms of energy and musicality.

I would strongly recommend for jazz that you forgo separation and embrace leakage. Let the band setup how they are comfortable and then work with microphone polar patterns to get as much separation as you can.

Throw up a main pair of SDCs (maybe the DPAs) and then spot each of the instruments however you find appropriate.

Don't record with compression - use a high enough bitrate and you'll have plenty of headroom. Compress later if necessary (shouldn't need much). You have some pretty sweet gear to work with (I'm jealous) so it'll be hard for you to go wrong as long as you use your ears.

[jnorman]

i couldnt have said it better - jabbaz is right on.

[anonymouse]

<<I would strongly recommend for jazz that you forgo separation and embrace leakage>>

+1

royers in blumlein or the earthworks or schoeps in spaced omni with jecklin as the main pair, and position the players nearer or farther from the mics depending on how loud they play. this should get you most of the way there and then spot anything that is weak accordingly.

i personally like both playing in and recording bands where the players are huddled in tight.

my perspective is always as a musician first so i size up the players/music either beforehand from a tape or while they are rehearsing and try to feature what the band is about. if it is a singer with a backup band then the vocals come first. if the band is mainly about the piano player then i will center the recording around the piano. if it was elvin jones on drums i would make sure the drums sound good. if it is a band that functions well as a unit and has played together for a long time then go for the whole sound -- these bands are the easiest and lend themselves best to stereo pairs. if any of the players suck then i might accidentally turn their volume down.

i like the sound of the squirrel nut zippers records. i think i was in the studio they used in new orleans where they just put up a stereo pair in the middle of the room and positioned themselves in a circle around the mics like i had mentioned. (i guess it must have been either a blumlein configuration or some omnis, not sure). when the guitar player would take a solo he would step in closer to the mics. they had some white tape markers on the floor so they would know exactly where to stand.

another approach is just spot everyone minimally. both schoeps on the piano, 149 or 87 on the vocal ( i like the mics up a little higher than mouth level) for vocal), qtc on the guitar, royer or qtc on bass. if you use the royer on bass then take care to use the null to your advantage i.e. point the null at the drums. perhaps you wont need anything on drums depending on how loud they play. otherwise the other qtc in front of drum kit.

the omnis lend themselves well to close-micing and the proximity effect from the ribbon and cardioids may work well on vocal and bass.

all the preamps are very good. millennia and grace are very accurate. the great river adds some nice thickness to the tone.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by Jabbaz

I would strongly recommend for jazz that you forgo separation and embrace leakage. Let the band setup how they are comfortable and then work with microphone polar patterns to get as much separation as you can.

Throw up a main pair of SDCs (maybe the DPAs) and then spot each of the instruments however you find appropriate.

Yes, that's the way to go. I would, however, avoid room mics. Because of the leakage, you'll get enough room sound in the instrument mics. Use piont-source imaging.

I would use as much of that Manley gear as possible as well.

Ribbon mic and km84 on bass.

[bkbirge]

I agree with most of what's been said but I'd go omni on the bass and shove it close under the fingerboard, cardioid works against you on close mic'ed upright in my opinion. I'd also take a DI for insurance even though I hate hate hate the upright DI'd sound. I might be tempted to put the singer/guitarist in the booth if there's still good line of sight to the other players. I'd be most worried about off axis coloration on the vocal mic if it's in with the bass and drums. If I didn't put the singer in the booth then I'd also probably forego any use of headphones and let the musicians balance themselves, that always is the best way to go if you can get away with it. I'd also have a pair of room mics up, even if they don't get used in the final mix they can often tie the sound together nicely. Sometimes they are all that's needed. With good jazz players there's not a lot to worry about, just get good basic tracks. Stay away from compression unless it's on whatever you put in the iso booth.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by bkbirge

I agree with most of what's been said but I'd go omni on the bass and shove it close under the fingerboard, cardioid works against you on close mic'ed upright in my opinion. I'd also take a DI for insurance even though I hate hate hate the upright DI'd sound. I might be tempted to put the singer/guitarist in the booth if there's still good line of sight to the other players. I'd be most worried about off axis coloration on the vocal mic if it's in with the bass and drums. If I didn't put the singer in the booth then I'd also probably forego any use of headphones and let the musicians balance themselves, that always is the best way to go if you can get away with it. I'd also have a pair of room mics up, even if they don't get used in the final mix they can often tie the sound together nicely. Sometimes they are all that's needed. With good jazz players there's not a lot to worry about, just get good basic tracks. Stay away from compression unless it's on whatever you put in the iso booth.

The omni mic will pickup too much drums. I get great results with ribbons and/or sdc mics on the bass. I've been making acoustic jazz recordings for over 20 years so you can trust me on this one. Also, some dynamic mics work well on bass. Beyer m88 and EV re-20 for example.

I never use DI, although I haven't had to record an "amp jockey". That's a bassist with very low action who always uses an amp on a gig. These guys usually sit on a stool. The stool is a dead give away.

I agree with the "no compression" advice, except on bass. I like a little compression on bass. But you can always add that later as was suggested already.

Also, I don't like to put the mic in the bass bridge. A sdc mic by the plucking fingers helps with the attack of the bass sound. A ribbon on the bass body just under the f-hole on the G-string side will give you more deep, woody tone. You may want to roll off from 120hz to avoid too much boom.

[bkbirge]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Also, I don't like to put the mic in the bass bridge. A sdc mic by the plucking fingers helps with the attack of the bass sound. A ribbon on the bass body just under the f-hole on the G-string side will give you more deep, woody tone. You may want to roll off from 120hz to avoid too much boom.

Horses for courses and all. Just for my taste the bass buildup of cardioid on a close miced upright is not nice. And I'm saying omni under the fingerboard, not bridge. With the omni I don't have to roll off anything and putting it under the fingerboard tames the drum leakage, and what leakage there is isn't nasty off-axis stuff like you get with figure 8 or cardioid. But everyone does this stuff differently, just sharing what's worked for me.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by bkbirge

Horses for courses and all. Just for my taste the bass buildup of cardioid on a close miced upright is not nice. And I'm saying omni under the fingerboard, not bridge. With the omni I don't have to roll off anything and putting it under the fingerboard tames the drum leakage, and what leakage there is isn't nasty off-axis stuff like you get with figure 8 or cardioid. But everyone does this stuff differently, just sharing what's worked for me.

Bass buildup? I haven't encountered that yet. But I do high-pass the bass mic as I track. I think you're more likely to have some proximity effect with a ribbon than bass buildup in cardioid.

Anyway, my favourite bass recordings were done with either RCA44, RCA77 or Schoeps 221b (Rudy Van Gelder) or U47/M50 (Columbia 30th street).

I will experiment with this omni thing anyway next week. I'm producing a big band jazz date at Sear Sound in NYC. I'll try an omni SDC tube mic.

[memuzo]

Thanks for all the comments ! I really appreciate !

[Jabbaz]

Originally Posted by memuzo

Thanks for all the comments ! I really appreciate !

Let us know how it goes, and if you can, please share some of the results!

[RMJAZZ]

Kick in- D112
Kick Out- U87
Snare top- SM57
Snare Bottom- SM57
hi hat- KM184
Toms- 414 on each
Overheads- 2 Earthworks QTC
Bass-KM184
2nd bass mic- M149
*****Put bass in same room as the drums and use gobos around the M149! Jazz players usually hate editing the bass to match the kick...that ain't jazz! LOL
Piano- 2 DPA mics!!!!! Love them.
Piano- try putting a SF1 in between both DPA mics and blend later in the mix.
Guitar-SF1 and SM57, you can try the 2nd U87 here as well
Vocal- I would just do a scratch vocal while the band is tracking....and then shootout the U87/M149 and the DPA and see which is best. If that isn't possible go with the U87 or M149 and just live with it.....
**You might need to tune the vocal after the fact....so don't shoot yourswelf in the foot and put the vocalist in the same room as the drums. Leave yourself as many mix/edit options as possible.

***Make sure the guitar amp is in another room. I would put the drums in the biggest tracking room you have along with the bass and piano, then put the vocalist playing guitar in the smaller booth. Run his guitar through tie lines and put his amp/cab in another room.

For pre amps, you'll be fine with what you have although none of those are my favorite pre's. I would recommend trying the Great River stuff on kick and snare. Most sessions aren't set up in a way that allows a ton of time to experiment...but try to push the time you have and make them let you do some experimentation. It's good you have a decent amount of high quality gear so mic things a couple different ways and then choose what is best later! Just pay attention to phase!!!!!!!!!! Get good clean sounds...and you will rock this session.
I wish you all the best,
Rob

[leddy]

Originally Posted by bkbirge

Horses for courses and all. Just for my taste the bass buildup of cardioid on a close miced upright is not nice. And I'm saying omni under the fingerboard, not bridge. With the omni I don't have to roll off anything and putting it under the fingerboard tames the drum leakage, and what leakage there is isn't nasty off-axis stuff like you get with figure 8 or cardioid. But everyone does this stuff differently, just sharing what's worked for me.

I've had success with this as well. It has to be close though, so a large mic (like Andy was suggesting) on a stand may or may not cut it, ymmv. A small omni like an Earthworks-type thing suspended in the bridge with the rubber band trick would likely give better isolation (if the bass player allows it). I had great results with one of these: Naiant
It may not sound as good as an Earthworks, but it's a lot lighter and does not dampen the bass.

I now have a DPA 4099 that is better still.

How do you mount a mic under the fingerboard?

Here is a clip of the little Naiant omni in rubber bands on my bass (no eq or anything):

[memuzo]

Thanks for the later comments

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Kick in- D112
Kick Out- U87
Snare top- SM57
Snare Bottom- SM57
hi hat- KM184
Toms- 414 on each
Overheads- 2 Earthworks QTC

Rob

Isn't that too much for Jazz??

Originally Posted by Jabbaz

Let us know how it goes, and if you can, please share some of the results!

Sure!

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Kick in- D112
Kick Out- U87
Snare top- SM57
Snare Bottom- SM57
hi hat- KM184
Toms- 414 on each
Overheads- 2 Earthworks QTC

This is a joke, right?

This is more mics than I use for an entire jazz quartet.

How do you get a mic in a bass drum?

How about this?

1 U87 or M149 or 414 to pick up the entire drumset
1 km184 for snare/hh
1 sm57 on bass drum

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

I've had success with this as well. It has to be close though, so a large mic (like Andy was suggesting) on a stand may or may not cut it, ymmv. A small omni like an Earthworks-type thing suspended in the bridge with the rubber band trick would likely give better isolation (if the bass player allows it). I had great results with one of these: Naiant
It may not sound as good as an Earthworks, but it's a lot lighter and does not dampen the bass.

I now have a DPA 4099 that is better still.

How do you mount a mic under the fingerboard?

Here is a clip of the little Naiant omni in rubber bands on my bass (no eq or anything):

I really like that bass sound! The only problem is the ride cymbal leakage. You might be able to eq some of that out but that would also effect the bass sound. I think a cardioid or super-cardioid or figure-8 would have more off-axis rejection of the drums.

If you want to pan the bass and drums to the same spot in the mix, then this is not a problem. If you want to pan the drums left and have bass in the middle, this much cymbal leakage will probably be a drag. Otherwise, I really dig that bass sound.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

I really like that bass sound! The only problem is the ride cymbal leakage. You might be able to eq some of that out but that would also effect the bass sound. I think a cardioid or super-cardioid or figure-8 would have more off-axis rejection of the drums.

If you want to pan the bass and drums to the same spot in the mix, then this is not a problem. If you want to pan the drums left and have bass in the middle, this much cymbal leakage will probably be a drag. Otherwise, I really dig that bass sound.

Thanks. Keep in mind, that is with me standing right next to the ride cymbal while he's hitting pretty hard. I chose that to show the worst case scenerio.

I've put mics like a Beyer M160 or M88 in one of those mini Reflexion filters and got better rejection and a decent sound, but that's bulky for live use.

Like bkbirge was saying, there's more leakage, but it's not bad. For me, the leakage into a directional mic tends to be wonky and messes up the sound more than the lack of isolation. Or rather, I have not figured out how to have the success with it that you do. Your results are fantastic, no doubt.

[Fabi]

I never tried this but how about putting the bass and vocals into the vocal booth (if big enough) and the rest of the band into the live room.
It just came to my mind and seems like a nice idea to me.
IMHO alot of vocalists listen mostly to the bassplayer for a pitch and harmony reference. I always hate drum leakage in the bass and I could imagine the leakage between vocals and bass could be pretty managable.


In your case you will also have to put the amp into the liveroom.

any experience with this??

[beingmf]

I guess I'm too late, but the bass almost certainly has to be the one in the booth. Too much leakage if you want to record it properly – and the problem is not *really* the bass sound itself but the clarity of all other instruments (esp. drum transients). I hope all is going well! Let us hear some stories when you're done...

[leddy]

Originally Posted by beingmf

I guess I'm too late, but the bass almost certainly has to be the one in the booth. Too much leakage if you want to record it properly – and the problem is not *really* the bass sound itself but the clarity of all other instruments (esp. drum transients). I hope all is going well! Let us hear some stories when you're done...

Depends on how you define "properly". There are all kinds of live jazz recordings with no isolation for the bass where everything sounds great.

When I can hear the isolation and artificial reverb on a jazz record, it bugs me. "Proper" for me is everyone live in the room. No cans or isolation.

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by leddy

Depends on how you define "properly". There are all kinds of live jazz recordings with no isolation for the bass where everything sounds great.

When I can hear the isolation and artificial reverb on a jazz record, it bugs me. "Proper" for me is everyone live in the room. No cans or isolation.

Yes, this is how you want to record acoustic jazz. No isolation or headphones. A little leakage never hurt anyone.

[RMJAZZ]

Well, the mic set up I described is what I have used on many Jazz groups. If you don't know how to put a mic in a kick drum there are places on this forum to learn standard drum micing techniques. I understand that SOME straight ahead players don't put holes in their kicks.....but not all of them play that way. It is much better to have more mics than you think you might need during mix..........always. Unless I am recording a Brian Blade or Jeff Watts......those quality players, I want to have many options during the mix process. So no sir, my post was not a joke.

Originally Posted by ajfarber

This is a joke, right?

This is more mics than I use for an entire jazz quartet.

How do you get a mic in a bass drum?

How about this?

1 U87 or M149 or 414 to pick up the entire drumset
1 km184 for snare/hh
1 sm57 on bass drum

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Well, the mic set up I described is what I have used on many Jazz groups. If you don't know how to put a mic in a kick drum there are places on this forum to learn standard drum micing techniques. I understand that SOME straight ahead players don't put holes in their kicks.....but not all of them play that way. It is much better to have more mics than you think you might need during mix..........always. Unless I am recording a Brian Blade or Jeff Watts......those quality players, I want to have many options during the mix process. So no sir, my post was not a joke.

Sorry, it just seemed like you were describing a rock/pop date. I like to think of a drum set as 1 instrument rather than 8 instruments. 1 mic in the right position will pick up the entire set and it's up to the drummer to balance all the different bits. I do add and extra mic for the hh/snare for a little extra "chip" if needed and I add a bass drum mic as well although I don't usually have to use much of it.

I'd have to say that 100% of straight-ahead jazz drummers I encounter don't have a hole in their bass drum.

Also, with so many close mics on a drum set, you get a presence that puts the drums too forward in the mix (not volume, just presence). It makes for a very "produced and artificial" sound that doesn't represent a jazz band in a "real space". Assuming you record in a good room, less mics (on everything) tends to sound more realistic as far as blend and ambiance are concerned.

I just recorded a big band yesterday. 3 mics on the drums. Elam 251 as the main o/h, Neumann km54 on sn/hh and Beyer m88 on bass drum.

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by ajfarber

Sorry, it just seemed like you were describing a rock/pop date. I like to think of a drum set as 1 instrument rather than 8 instruments. 1 mic in the right position will pick up the entire set and it's up to the drummer to balance all the different bits. I do add and extra mic for the hh/snare for a little extra "chip" if needed and I add a bass drum mic as well although I don't usually have to use much of it.

I'd have to say that 100% of straight-ahead jazz drummers I encounter don't have a hole in their bass drum.

Also, with so many close mics on a drum set, you get a presence that puts the drums too forward in the mix (not volume, just presence). It makes for a very "produced and artificial" sound that doesn't represent a jazz band in a "real space". Assuming you record in a good room, less mics (on everything) tends to sound more realistic as far as blend and ambiance are concerned.

I just recorded a big band yesterday. 3 mics on the drums. Elam 251 as the main o/h, Neumann km54 on sn/hh and Beyer m88 on bass drum.

That's great.......just understand that you don't have to use a mic in the mix just b/c you put it up for tracking......I am a big stickler for using high quality instruments, and find that most drummers do not have great kits. Even some famous drummers. Also- the 3 mic technique on drums depends largely on room acoustics, so they had better be in a killer room!

I might make the decision to use only 3 drum mics on the mix, even though I put up 11 or 12. The drums being too upfront in the mix is according to how you mix the other instruments in. If they are all individually mic'd you might not have to fight to get a good balance....but it all depends on the vision of whoever is producing the project. If it is a real old school Coltrane thing.....great. But, often in modern straight ahead jazz is recorded with more than just a few mics. Since a recording is forever I just like options after the band is gone.

Rob

[ajfarber]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

That's great.......just understand that you don't have to use a mic in the mix just b/c you put it up for tracking......

Well, that's true of course. Tracks are cheap (although mics are not).

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

I am a big stickler for using high quality instruments, and find that most drummers do not have great kits. Even some famous drummers.

I haven't noticed that. Most jazz drummers that I have encountered have very nice drum sets. Vintage Gretch or top-of-the-range new sets.

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Also- the 3 mic technique on drums depends largely on room acoustics, so they had better be in a killer room!

I have found that this technique works well in even mediocre rooms.

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

If it is a real old school Coltrane thing.....

Coltrane is modern, "old school" would be Louis Armstrong or Fletcher Henderson.

[evets]

Originally Posted by leddy

I've had success with this as well. It has to be close though, so a large mic (like Andy was suggesting) on a stand may or may not cut it, ymmv. A small omni like an Earthworks-type thing suspended in the bridge with the rubber band trick would likely give better isolation (if the bass player allows it). I had great results with one of these: Naiant
It may not sound as good as an Earthworks, but it's a lot lighter and does not dampen the bass.

I now have a DPA 4099 that is better still.

How do you mount a mic under the fingerboard?

Here is a clip of the little Naiant omni in rubber bands on my bass (no eq or anything):

I would also like to know how you put a mic under the fingerboard?
Also what is the rubber band trick in the bridge?
Any photos of either of these?

thanks

[bkbirge]

Originally Posted by evets

I would also like to know how you put a mic under the fingerboard?
Also what is the rubber band trick in the bridge?
Any photos of either of these?

thanks

I'll see about getting a pic up and some sound samples from my upright but the short answer is that I wrap a long mic (cmv563 with a bayonet capsule, or altec cokebottle) in foam and stuff it in the bridge with the mic capsule resting under the fingerboard. I've also wrapped smaller mics in foam and carefully taped them to the body under the fingerboard. The rubber band trick is to use one in criss cross as a shockmount for a pencil mic, with the bridge being the frame of the shockmount. I haven't tried it but it sounds like a good idea worth trying.

[waxx]

Originally Posted by RMJAZZ

Kick in- D112
Kick Out- U87
Snare top- SM57
Snare Bottom- SM57
hi hat- KM184
Toms- 414 on each
Overheads- 2 Earthworks QTC

way to much mics

i would go

kick out (with double full skins on the kick) md421
OH in recordman technique:2 x KM184 or earthworks qtc or c414

and maybe a roommic for the full band. Jazzbands tend to balance themselves very well, so you can use that as the reverb if the room is good in stead of a artificial reverb...

In the mixing you start with the roommic, and add what is missing from the close miced channels... just some eq where necesairy and no compression please. Jazz doesn't like that!!

[RMJAZZ]

Originally Posted by waxx

way to much mics

i would go

kick out (with double full skins on the kick) md421
OH in recordman technique:2 x KM184 or earthworks qtc or c414

and maybe a roommic for the full band. Jazzbands tend to balance themselves very well, so you can use that as the reverb if the room is good in stead of a artificial reverb...

In the mixing you start with the roommic, and add what is missing from the close miced channels... just some eq where necesairy and no compression please. Jazz doesn't like that!!

Read the title of this thread......it says "Lots of Mics and PreAmps"......

R

[bkbirge]

Originally Posted by waxx

In the mixing you start with the roommic, and add what is missing from the close miced channels... just some eq where necesairy and no compression please. Jazz doesn't like that!!

I'm guessing there are a lot of folks here who's idea of jazz is extremely limited. Your approach wouldn't work for Medeski Martin and Wood, or Tower of Power, or Marcus Miller, or insert-lots-of-jazz-bands-here.