ADK TL, TLM193, TLM170R for classical vocals & instruments

[king2070lplaya]

looking for an LDC with a flatter frequency response for mostly operatic/classical style music. After scooting around on here a bit and doing outside research, these 3 mics (ADK TL pro, tlm 193, tlm 170) seem to be my favorite candidates.

And honestly, the 170 is a bit of a stretch for my pocket, but that is what I've heard my favorite opera singers (Netrebko specifically) use and I want that kind of timbre from the mic. I am not looking for ANYTHING hyped, I have an MA200 and it doesn't work well at all for this kind of thing.

Because I love the 170, my first instinct was to go for the 193. Except people post that they "aren't even close to the same" and it has me kind of apprehensive, but still seems like a good choice. Very similar frequency response and distortion figures, so it should be a similar sound, right? This mic gets alot of trash talk from people that seem to do mostly pop styles of music, and then not really endorsements so much as notes from others about how it's often used in classical settings. SOOOOO it's hard to know where it really stands without actually comparing the two myself.

I haven't been able to find much about the ADK TL except for a few short endorsements and a classified that says it CAN be turned into a killer mic..... I am wondering if, stock, people find it not quite up to par. But one person whose advice I find helpful has endorsed it as a neutral, transparent mic over the shure ksm32, and that's what has hipped me to it.

SO IN CLOSING, can anyone out there please donate some knowledge for me on the topic? I guess specifically how well the ADK TL compares to the TLM 193 as they are available at almost similar prices. Thanks all!

PS as a bonus I wanna throw in some links to some cool classical studio vids. You don't wanna miss these:

promo for Anna Netrebko's "Russian Album", with Valery G. interview and recording footage. My very favorite soprano album, sooo warm and cozy.
YouTube - Anna Netrebko: Russian Album

promo for her "Duets" album with Rolando Villazon:
YouTube - Anna Netrebko & Rolando Villazón - Duets

Awesome set of vids with Rene Jacobs conducting Don Giovanni. His recordings with Harmonia Mundi are arguably the best sounding period classical albums ever. I cannot express in words how amazing these albums are to listen to (especially the Figaro)
YouTube - René Jacobs - Don Giovanni Recording Sessions: Part 1

and Jacobs recording the Haydn "Creation".
YouTube - René Jacobs Conducts Haydn's Creation for harmonia mundi

Bernstein recording "West Side Story", unfortunately with opera instead of broadway singers. Doesn't quite translate, but this Krupke is actually really great. I guess it's telling that DG hasn't done any musicals since, eh?
YouTube - Leonard Bernstein: West Side Story, studio-takes. (8)

And finally, this clip is tense, and a good example of how native musics are HARD to pick up, even to the most trained musicians. It's really not a hard song to grasp if you're used to singing American pop music. but if you're a Spanish tenor, well...... see for yourself:
YouTube - Leonard Bernstein: West Side Story, studio-takes. (2)

Enjoy!

[king2070lplaya]

Late night early morning bump

[Larry Villella]

The field-tests we've done with classical vocals seems to point to
the ADK Hamburg-67 as a good fit. We've done BBC recordings of
Juliette Pochin singing opera, as well as Julian Lloyd-Webber on Cello.

The 3 Zigma C-Lol-47 is another classical-vox friendly mic.

In my opinion, the now discontinued TL is more of an instrument & choir mic.


Good Luck in your search!

Larry Villella, ADK)))

[SteelyDani]

Originally Posted by king2070lplaya

Because I love the 170, my first instinct was to go for the 193. Except people post that they "aren't even close to the same" and it has me kind of apprehensive, but still seems like a good choice. Very similar frequency response and distortion figures, so it should be a similar sound, right? This mic gets alot of trash talk from people that seem to do mostly pop styles of music, and then not really endorsements so much as notes from others about how it's often used in classical settings. SOOOOO it's hard to know where it really stands without actually comparing the two myself.

I’ve got two of them. In fact I have two TLM 193 and one TLM 170. When in cardioid the TLM 170 it is indistinguishable to the TLM193, at least to my ears. Both are wonderful mics.

[jnorman]

tlm193 is wonderful on orchestral instruments.

[king2070lplaya]

Thanks for all the tips guys, I think i've got a good idea now what I'd like.

KB

[Remoteness]

Perhaps more posts will appear now that the thread is in the proper forum.

[bass man]

tlm 193 is very very close to tlm 170 in cardioid but in my opinion not the same ,as far as I can remember . I have 2 tlm 193 and had tlm 170 for couple of months 3 years ago and I like the tlm 170 more .... Specially in high freq.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Perhaps more posts will appear now that the thread is in the proper forum.

Steve, I like that this is specifically the "proper forum"

[CGBrian.M]

Can't comment specifically about the ADK TL on classical voice, but I used to own a matched pair that I liked for recording classical instruments. They are quite transparent. However, I found they were also a little thin sounding, and didn't have the greatest bass extension, even in omni. They also were somewhat cold (lacking warmth, and I don't mean color).
As Larry said, ADK has some custom capsules that are probably much better for voice. Of the one's I've heard samples of, the GK-251 seemed the most impressive.
Curious as to where you've seen a TLM193 and ADK TL for the same price? Of the very limited ADK TL stock left (in the US), it should be way less expensive than the TLM193. Unless you're comparing a used TLM193 to a new ADK TL. But even then.

Brian

[klaukholm]

I believe the 193 has a slightly cleaner cardioid pattern than the 170 as it is a fixed cardioid.
I would also look at a mk4 or mk22 for classical vocals.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

I believe the 193 has a slightly cleaner cardioid pattern than the 170 as it is a fixed cardioid.

I think you'll find it's the same - the 170 and the 193 use the same capsule.

In the 193 the rear diaphragm is not used - the same as in the 170 when it's switched to cardioid.




Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by SteelyDani

I’ve got two of them. In fact I have two TLM 193 and one TLM 170. When in cardioid the TLM 170 it is indistinguishable to the TLM193, at least to my ears. Both are wonderful mics.

This is what I would expect.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[klaukholm]

John, I also have both, but I have several generations of 170, some with older capsules, some with brand new ones,
Whatever differences there are (there certainly are some differences in the amp) they are minute as far as I am concerned. The grill does also play in to some extent.
As long as I use them in cardioid I could care less which one I put where, be it purpe badge 170, red badge or 193.

[king2070lplaya]

Hey all,

Thanks for your comments, and thanks to the mod for the switch. It has been much more productive over here in the remote section. I will say it's a sad state of affairs tho that most of us (me anyways) have to be "remote" and "on location" to do classical recordings anymore ;-).

But I digress. my question now.... The Schoeps mk21 and mk4 are mentioned for vocal recording. I've seen these used in live concert videos, but never in the studio. That said, I haven't ever been to a proper classical studio recording anyways, other than the ones i'm doing or the ones i'm playing in which are not "label" professional. So to the people that do it for real, do you find you lose any sort of body to the sound when you use the sdc schoeps' versus a ldc like a tlm 193? I've also seen them in pairs in these concerts, a very close a-b in front of the singer. Is this a redundancy thing for reliability reasons or is this the suggested stereo positioning for picking up a vocalist with these small mics?

And another quick question, when using the LDC's in a classical setting (chamber or orchestral) where do you find yourself mostly using them? Mains or spot mics?

The TL sounds less appealing now than a few days ago as i've been able to find a few more reviews with the same conclusions of "coldness" and bass-less-ness. I like (and realize it's nearly impossible on my budget) that '50's Fritz Reiner/CSO sound, or say the Callas Carmen with George Pretre... I'm assuming, given their age, that these are all old tube mic/tape recordings, but with the remastering they are just as wonderful or better sounding than anything i've heard recently. My buddy and I used to scrounge around library sales and garage sales in college, trying to find these oldies and the like (George Szell, Georg Solti, etc. anything pre '80ish) on vinyl. Oh man those were fun times, and the sound is incredible, even with little pops and such.

So cold mics, eh, probably not good for my ears. Why is everything cool so freakin expensive!?

Thank you all for your comments, I appreciate your help and guidance. You are a wonderful community!

[jax72]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I think you'll find it's the same - the 170 and the 193 use the same capsule.

In the 193 the rear diaphragm is not used - the same as in the 170 when it's switched to cardioid.

If I am not mistaken, I don't think this is how it works.

When the 170 is switched to cardioid, still both sides of the diaphragm are working.
But the resulting signal is the electrical difference between the front side and the rear side.

Physics say it should sound the same, some ears hear a difference.

A.

[kissingonstilts]

I've owned several 170s; and I tried the 193 when it came out back in the 90s. Side by side there was a very slight difference to my ears - the 193 being ever so very slightly 'darker', but it was not anything anyone would notice unless comparing them in a similar manner, and listening for 'differences'. I preferred the look and vibe of the 170.

The Schoeps mics would be an excellent choice - both the mk4 and the mk21 capsules (the mk4 is 'rounder'). Also, an old CMT30 RF (radio France) is excellent. I've one with a cardioid/omni capsule and it does beautifully in a myriad of situations, and they can be had for around $1000 in immaculate condition.

Try some of them and see what suits you, and your budget. I've found the Schoeps work really well on voices.

[king2070lplaya]

I'll look into the old Schoeps, thanks for the tip. The mk2 and 4 are out of my range, unfortunately, and i was really hoping to pick up an LDC just cause it would give me a bit more flexibility when going back to pop music vocals. But if that little guy fits the bill and sounds as dynamite as the other schoeps, maybe that's the best way to go.

watch, I'm gonna wind up with all these awesome sounding, tiny mics. MA-100's, Line Audio CM3's, schoeps, Zigmas, etc. My friends in my old funk band are gonna look at me like i'm nuts next time we record together. And they're gonna sound transparently sweet ;-)

EDIT: hey kissingonstilts, i think you are talking about the cmt 30 fnu, correct?