Piccolo - yikes!

[jnorman]

ofay - i have to do a piccolo audition recording this weekend. had my wife (flute player) noodle around on a borrowed one to see what it might need, and OUCH - man, that sucker is shrill! my km140s and DPA 4061s were both way too bright on it.

what might you use on a piccolo?

otherwise, maybe i should try using a km140 WAY off axis, like 90 degrees, or even facing slightly away from the player?

thanks.

[SynthLine09]

I would use firewood...and maybe a sledgehammer

Sorry not a lot of help here. I think you have the right idea with experimentation/placement.

[Ken Walker]

A piccolo is ever shiller than a flute. You're going to want to get the sound of the breath from the player, which means your mic placement may be closer than you wish. What mics and pres do you have to work with? You'll want to smooth out and tame that high end. For me, I'd use a Fathead or my Peluso R14 ribbon (recorded flute with it and it was quite good). I used an Avalon AD 2022, plenty of gain and very clean, but I also had nice results going in a different direction, using an LA-610. My KSM44 didn't sound bad either, but it has a bit of harshness not seen in the R14 or fathead. Personally, I wouldn't go off-axis, but maybe a few guys here with a lot of experience recording high woodwinds can chime in here (i've done much more brass). I'd like to hear what others have done as well.

[Corran]

Whoa, want to get the breath sound?? Absolutely not!! I want to hear my tone, not the breath, same as flute.

This is simple - record it with the darkest mic you have. Ribbons obviously would be best.

[rumleymusic]

Yeah, I once took the job of another engineer because he miked the flute too close and got too much air sound.

You can use the 4061. Remove the grid and fiddle with the eq to cut some of the nasty high register. I have done that with good results.

I personally like the cheap Little Blondies on flute and piccolo. They have a very natural, and detailed ribbon-like response.

[12ax7]

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Try a 635a.

(No kidding.}

Yeah, they're very inexpensive, but don't let that scare ya.

Usually works best about a foot above the player's head and out front a bit (depending).

Its an omni, so you may have to play it against the room some.
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[Ken Walker]

Originally Posted by Corran

Whoa, want to get the breath sound?? Absolutely not!! I want to hear my tone, not the breath, same as flute.

This is simple - record it with the darkest mic you have. Ribbons obviously would be best.

I don't mean a ton of breath, but I personally always liked a bit of it. To me, it just sounds right because I always hear a little of it during a live performance. At least my ribbon suggestion didn't offend you, e.

[Remoteness]

I'm with Bryan on this one...

Try a darker mic; a ribbon mic might be just the right transducer.

If that's not perfect (dare I say) why not pull the offensive frequencies with an EQ?

[mljung]

Piccolo flutes are not just killing microphones but also ears. A good friend of mine damaged his ears rehearsing piccolo.

Get away from the beast [no close ups] a good room [not emphasizing shrillness] and microphones that can cope with a large dynamic range [again not emphasizing shrillness].

And protect your wife's ears!

stike

::
Mads

[Yannick]

good player, good room, not too close.

And a SF12.

good luck

[Don S]

Originally Posted by 12ax7

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Try a 635a.

(No kidding.}

Yeah, they're very inexpensive, but don't let that scare ya.

Usually works best about a foot above the player's head and out front a bit (depending).

Its an omni, so you may have to play it against the room some.
.

I thinking the same thing - maybe an RE15 if the room isn't so great

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by Don S

I thinking the same thing - maybe an RE15 if the room isn't so great

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Yep.

The 635a is a truly amazing microphone.

I've found that after going through a few mics, and all of them are "too this" or "too that," the 635a often comes to the rescue.

If it looked sexier and cost a grand or two, it would most certainly get more of the kind of love that seems to be reserved for Telefunkens and Neumanns.

(Same with the RE-15, but to a lesser degree.)
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[Ozpeter]

Back in 1996 I recorded the complete chamber music of Jacques Ibert for Olympia (now released on Brilliant, see Amazon.com: Jacques Ibert - Complete Chamber Music: Jacques Ibert, Nieuw Nederlands Strijkkwartet: Music - , nice reviews!) and that included "Pastoral for four pipes" - the pipe in question being something which memory tells me was even shriller than the piccolo. I think I used my usual Sennheiser MKH series MS pair, but it was very tricky.

What complicated matters was that not only was the work for four 'pipes' but there was only one player available. And I had no advance warnng of this, and found myself in Amsterdam some way from my London base, having to improvise with what I had, namely a couple of DAT recorders, which I used to build up the recording bouncing from one to the other, as I recall it.

And of course it had to be completed on a tight timescale.

I thought I could claim to be the only engineer to record this work for CD but Google tells me that there is one other version currently available - but they cheated by having four players.

[kstrauss]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I'm with Bryan on this one...

Try a darker mic; a ribbon mic might be just the right transducer.

If that's not perfect (dare I say) why not pull the offensive frequencies with an EQ?

Actually you might want to rethink using a dark mic. If this is an audition tape for an orchestral job, the piccolo is used by composers specifically because it is a bright high-pitched instrument. It can cut through an entire orchestra playing fortissimo. So if you end up making the instrument sound dark it might actually work against the player.

I'd say use your KM140s and try to get as accurate a sound as possible.

[ysmgj]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

I personally like the cheap Little Blondies on flute and piccolo. They have a very natural, and detailed ribbon-like response.

i used the blondies on a shinobue / japanese babmboo flute a couple days ago.

no matter how shrill the thing got, the recording came out just right, natural and real.

the flautist herself commented on how real it sounded.

i was playing around with the blondies in XY ( from that thread a while ago ),... placed them a couple feet away from the end of the flute(mehh room), pointing to behind the flautist so it was off axis.

sounded nice.

then during one rehearsal she decided to wander around a bit so she turned her back to the mics,.... it softened the sound alot, made it all dreamy an shit.

[Corran]

Originally Posted by kstrauss

Actually you might want to rethink using a dark mic. If this is an audition tape for an orchestral job, the piccolo is used by composers specifically because it is a bright high-pitched instrument. It can cut through an entire orchestra playing fortissimo. So if you end up making the instrument sound dark it might actually work against the player.

I'd say use your KM140s and try to get as accurate a sound as possible.

In my experience a dark mic makes the instrument sound natural. The usual rule of thumb is to use opposites, right? Bright source, dark mic, dark source, bright mic.

[Windshore]

as a piccolo player and producer...

Ribbon Mic

I use an r84 - you just have to be careful of getting reflections from the room in back of the figure 8 but it smooths things out without taking away from character you want.

I've also used an KM184 at about 3-4 feet and roll off around 6 k... but this isn't ideal. (though it's fine for many things)

btw.... if you're recording in a nice room with some distance, more like 6 ft. and you like the natural ambience the km184 is actually good

[rumleymusic]

If this is an audition tape for an orchestral job, the piccolo is used by composers specifically because it is a bright high-pitched instrument.

Though in a concert hall, and with distance miking, the high frequencies are naturally smoothed and tapered. The darker mic mimics that sound, and allows the mic to be placed closer.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Corran

In my experience a dark mic makes the instrument sound natural. The usual rule of thumb is to use opposites, right? Bright source, dark mic, dark source, bright mic.

I'm with you Bryan.
And, above all my ear is the final decision maker.

[12ax7]

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The OP (jnorman) has yet to chime back in here, but I'd like to know more:

Is the piccolo the ONLY instrument?

In what sort of room is the musician playing?

What other mics do you actually have available?

What mic pre's are available?

A piccolo is not only a VERY LOUD instrument, but it also throws its various and sundry sounds in myriad directions from moment to moment, and is meant to play into a VERY BIG room (or even outdoors).

It is also designed to be heard from a pretty good distance.

The result of all this is that in order to get some semblance of an "accurate" recording, the placement of the player within the room and a good placement for the mic(s) may actually matter a heck of a lot more than the choice of mics! (...Not to mention the qualities of the room itself!)

If you happen to be recording the instrument solo, and you're stuck with a tiny little box of a room, you may end up being better off with a boundary mic (or pair) on the studio side of the control room glass, and move the player around 'till it sounds good.

Another thing about a piccolo (not to mention other instruments) is that alot of the timbre of the instrument is NOT coming from the parts of the frequency spectrum you may think! For instance, the "breath" and "air" we have talked about is not as high in freq as you may think. And the impact of the pads on the body of the instrument make a sound that is lower in freq than you may imagine.

All of this stuff conspires upon us in a way that makes it very hard to "write a perscription" for a microphone. I could very easily end up taping a Radio Shack PZM on the control room window while a U47 sits in the locker, unused (or maybe put up in the room "for show").

...On the other hand, if I were recording the same instrument and player at Abbey Road, I might have a ribbon as a "close mic" and a Schoeps M-S thang to catch the room sound.

(And that's before we even talk about how different mics work with different preamps!)

...Still, I would keep an EV 635a handy! ;-)
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[klaukholm]

Good piccolo playing is not shrill, same goes for good Eb and D clarinet.
It is, however brilliant and clear.
What kind of audition is this?
Is there piano?
Will the player also play regular flute?
what kind of room are you recording in?

A neutral mic is safe,
in an audition, you do not want to have an unusual sound.
Brilliant, but warm is a good bet.

[Yannick]

Yes, but in reference to the KM140 remark, I think it will hurt the audition less to use a mic with -2db @ 12K than a mic with +2dB between 7 and 10K ...

That is the region were the most important first and second harmonics are (for this instrument). You definately don't want those to become too loud

Certainly at closer distances.

[klaukholm]

An audition panel will not want bright and shrill piccolo.
I have been a jury member for piccolo auditions for good symphony orchestras and a 140 would not do you any favours with a jury.
What you want is something that renders the lick from tchaik 4 with clarity and without the slap in the face that you often get at the top of the run.
A mkh8040 or tlm170 would for sure be my first pick for the job.

[jnorman]

thank you all for the helpful responses. yes, there will be piano accompaniment. my only mics are km140s and dpa 4061s. i will probably use a km140 well off-axis with the 4061s as room mics about 10 feet out. if that doesnt work, i will use my standard method for micing bagpipes - a single good dynamic mic about 1 mile away.

[klaukholm]

You may need to bring in the flute with a mono spot.
For an audition the flute needs to ride over the piano a bit albeit natural sounding.

[Yannick]

Originally Posted by klaukholm

You may need to bring in the flute with a mono spot.
For an audition the flute needs to ride over the piano a bit albeit natural sounding.

Are you kidding ?

IMO it would be more usefull to build a concrete shelter around the piccolo first

[klaukholm]

Yannick, if it is an orchestral audition, there will be regular flute.
Also, often you have to play a vivaldi concerto. If you have a spot, you can always mute it in the final mix, but if it does not project in parts of the vivaldi, you have a problem (nobody wants a pussy piccolo)

[12ax7]

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...Which reminds me of a joke I'm having a hard time mustering up the self-discipline not to repeat here...
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