Alesis HD24XR - good time to buy?

[Empiria]

I stopped trusting computers, specially firewire on location and I'm leaning towards stand-alone recorders. I just ordered Tascam DR-680 for smaller setups, mostly concerts. For larger groups, my eyes are on the old, but brand new Alesis HD24XR. I know many words have been said about this machine, but now it's a special time - it is discontinued. Do you think I should buy it? Or maybe look at renewed FostexD2424lv mkII? I am looking at a JoeCo debate in other thread here, too. I couldn't find much info about its converters. Some thoughts of hard drives, metering, PSU, but how it really sounds comparing to HD24XR. There is not so much about that in SOS and Resolution reviews ("sounds good"), which makes me a bit worry. Thanks for your advice.

[hbphotoav]

Hey, Tomasz...

What has discouraged you on computer/firewire-based recording? Is it just the lack of locking connectors on the data cables, or are there inherent reliability problems I've not yet experienced? To date, my only problem in MBPro/Ensemble-or-Onyx/OWC drive housing recording has been in operator error... i.e., no uninterruptible power supply (done) and not securely gaff taping the FW connectors to every port (done). The gear has always worked properly... I seem to be the problem.

Hope your autumn is progressing nicely... ICMF is scheduled for Rome in 2012. It would be wonderful to see you again.

HB

[Empiria]

Hi Harry,

That was the question I wanted to avoid. I would wish to keep the thread focused on recorders not my computer troubles. I am glad your life's easier than mine, I think I will not come back to a laptop and fw.

BTW, I'm remembering a special time in Coventry. Glad I could meet you, Harry.

[hbphotoav]

No problemo. I was just wondering if there was something I should be worried about or watching for...

HB

[Plush]

HD 24xr is endorsed here. An excellent recorder with very good converters. I believe it uses the AKM converters. What I can tell you is that in 5 years ours (we have 2) have never given a problem here.

We mix analog out of the xr and the d/a is very good indeed.

Some may laugh, but you cannot argue with how high we get paid because of the sound.

recommended--especially now!

[Remoteness]

I'm with Plush on this one.

We have 4 HD24XRs and one HD24 w/ the EC2 upgrade kit that makes it an XR machine. Four of the machines are paired up in two individual racks. The fifth one is a standalone unit.

We have never (I mean never) had a problem with them.
They are indeed excellent recorders with really good converters all in a standalone box.

...Highly recommended here!

If you cannot dig what I'm saying, please consider selling me yours.
I wouldn't mind having another one, so I can have three pairs.

[idylldon]

Well, stellar endorsements from Plush and Steve should be enough to convince anyone, but I'll also weigh in to say the HD24XR is the best bang-for-the-buck recorder/converters out there. Excellent sound quality that easily rivals converters costing a LOT more.

Cheers,
--
Don

[ebulb]

Everyone that praises the HD24 hasnt had it drop out obviously.. It definately happens in certain conditions...

The main thing i would say is, if you are intending to use it on the stage or out the front and in line of the PA speakers with a loud band you may run into troubles.. If you are in a truck outside or far enough away from the stage or only recording fairly quiet performances your chances of having problems are reduced.. Up until i had my first drop out i loved the unit but once you start loosing live recordings that cannot be redone your enthusiasm changes.

A while back i emailed Alesis and asked if the HD24 was suitable for live recording and they wouldnt recommend it.. They only said it "should" work but it wasnt designed for it, which made me think they realise there are issues with drop outs.

I now have a DAW as backup and i try and keep the setup away from the stage volume as best i can.. If you look on the joeco thread you will see im whinging about the lack of a simple ADAT Input to flash memory recording device.. Something like that would really rock for this type of application, in the meantime i'll keep trying to avoid the HD24 pitfalls..

[Remoteness]

I don't know about everyone, but I'm not praising the HD24, I'm praising the HD24XR machines.

For us, adding a few plastic washers in the right place fixed the "dropping out" problem.

I've been in some seriously loud situations without any problems.
This doesn't mean it cannot happen, I'm just saying it never happened to me or my crew.

We go by what our own observations find.
We try to investigate as many of the issues and problems folks have addressed and do our best to come up with a solution or look towards our associates for the answers.

IMO, the HD24XR is a solid machine; it's a shame Alesis decided to discontinue this excellent 'bang for buck' recorder.

Originally Posted by ebulb

Everyone that praises the HD24 hasnt had it drop out obviously.. It definately happens in certain conditions...

The main thing i would say is, if you are intending to use it on the stage or out the front and in line of the PA speakers with a loud band you may run into troubles.. If you are in a truck outside or far enough away from the stage or only recording fairly quiet performances your chances of having problems are reduced.. Up until i had my first drop out i loved the unit but once you start loosing live recordings that cannot be redone your enthusiasm changes.

A while back i emailed Alesis and asked if the HD24 was suitable for live recording and they wouldnt recommend it.. They only said it "should" work but it wasnt designed for it, which made me think they realise there are issues with drop outs.

I now have a DAW as backup and i try and keep the setup away from the stage volume as best i can.. If you look on the joeco thread you will see im whinging about the lack of a simple ADAT Input to flash memory recording device.. Something like that would really rock for this type of application, in the meantime i'll keep trying to avoid the HD24 pitfalls..

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

For us, adding a few plastic washers in the right place fixed the "dropping out" problem.

This fix seems to work well, at least I haven't heard of anyone having this issue once they did the "washer" mod. Basically, it involves putting some washers in-between the flanges on the receiver connectors and the mounting pads inside the HD24, thus moving the connectors out a bit more towards the front of the machine. This makes the hard disk caddies seat more securely, which makes them far less susceptible to vibration-induced dropouts.

BTW, there's an excellent Yahoo group for the HD24 with many contributors working on keeping these machines going by writing new software for file transfers, developing SATA caddies, etc. If you do a search for the "washer mod" there, you'll turn up some good reports on it.

hd24 : HD24


Cheers,
--
Don

[rumleymusic]

I am looking at a JoeCo debate in other thread here, too. I couldn't find much info about its converters. Some thoughts of hard drives, metering, PSU, but how it really sounds comparing to HD24XR. There is not so much about that in SOS and Resolution reviews ("sounds good"), which makes me a bit worry.

Well the JoeCo box is designed by the same people who designed the Sadie recorders, so the quality is there I am sure.

If Alesis discontinued the current HD24 line, I am wondering if there is a newer version is on its way. I think a Masterlink upgrade is long, long overdue.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by idylldon

This fix seems to work well, at least I haven't heard of anyone having this issue once they did the "washer" mod. Basically, it involves putting some washers in-between the flanges on the receiver connectors and the mounting pads inside the HD24, thus moving the connectors out a bit more towards the front of the machine. This makes the hard disk caddies seat more securely, which makes them far less susceptible to vibration-induced dropouts.

It still happens with the washers.. It might be a combination of things that create the problem so perhaps the washers help in some ways but after my own assesments, I personally dont think the caddies move at all and break connection. Its something else within the unit somewhere that reacts to certain frequencies and its more midrange than bass from my experience...

The nature of the problem is such that you can go 20 shows and not see it and then for some unknown reason it appears 4 out of the next ten times..

I wish i never saw the problem because up until that point it was one of my favourite bits of gear, solid and simple and seemed to just work.. And well priced for what it did i thought.. Im not using the XR though only the basic model.

One test i would like to try on it someday is getting access to a venue with a large PA for an afternoon and running a very loud test tone and scaling up through the frequencies to see if its possible to recreate consistent drop outs at a certain point.. That would possibly give an idea of whatever is resonating or causing the problem and then you could work towards tuned dampening.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I don't know about everyone, but I'm not praising the HD24, I'm praising the HD24XR machines.

In terms of the drop outs is there anything in the XR you think might prevent the problem arising that the normal version hasnt got ? I thought it was only the converters that were different ?

In my opinion failure rates should be under 5% for me to feel comfortable.. More like 1 or 2 % should be what to expect... I would say myself and my other friend have probably seen above 15% since we have used our units...

[Remoteness]

It's hard to say, since it never happen to us.
I mean 100% success rate; I hope I'm not jinxing ourselves.

That said, I like your test tone through a loud PA idea.

Perhaps you can do the test with and without the cover on, so you can see exactly what's moving around inside.

Originally Posted by ebulb

In terms of the drop outs is there anything in the XR you think might prevent the problem arising that the normal version hasnt got ? I thought it was only the converters that were different ?

In my opinion failure rates should be under 5% for me to feel comfortable.. More like 1 or 2 % should be what to expect... I would say myself and my other friend have probably seen above 15% since we have used our units...

[Empiria]

Thanks for your help, gentlemen! Plush and Steve, your opinion means a lot for me, of course.

I work on classical only, so no PA systems and close-to-stage location. I am planning to use it for bigger recording sessions, always in a separate room. I hope not to worry about vibration. I am rather thinking of future service. The one I am about to buy is a brand new in a box with full warranty, probably one of the last to buy in EU. But what to do when it gets broken after a warranty? I hope not, but it may happen.

Wall-wart power, unbalanced connection on the first version and almost nothing said about converters make me stay away from the JoeCo. Price is a bit too high IMHO.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

It's hard to say, since it never happen to us.
I mean 100% success rate; I hope I'm not jinxing ourselves.

That said, I like your test tone through a loud PA idea.

Perhaps you can do the test with and without the cover on, so you can see exactly what's moving around inside.

the first opportunity i get with access to a venue with a good PA i will try it and see what i get.. id really like to establish more consistent info than i currently know of it.. I hate not understanding the origins of a problem and being forced to deal with inconsistencies.

[Remoteness]

You don't necessarily need a venue with a large sound system.
IMO, all you need is a powerful enough speaker in front of the recorder.

Originally Posted by ebulb

the first opportunity i get with access to a venue with a good PA i will try it and see what i get.. id really like to establish more consistent info than i currently know of it.. I hate not understanding the origins of a problem and being forced to deal with inconsistencies.

[RobAnderson]

Everyone that praises the HD24 hasnt had it drop out obviously.. It definately happens in certain conditions...

Just curious: what kind of rack is the HD24 mounted in? Both of mine are mounted in padded cases, one of which is extreme heavy-duty. The other is in a padded "gig bag" and it sits on heavily padded lids during the gig. The whole sha-bang sits on a wheeled hand truck (see pic). I have been subjected to some pretty hard-core levels on occasion and so far I have not had trouble with dropouts.

Also, when you say "dropout," do you mean "drops out of record" or do you mean "dropouts in the data stream"?

However, at one point my AD16 was suffering from random dropouts. As it turns out, one of the expansion cards had jiggled loose. Once the card was properly seated, I had no trouble.

I don't know what is in the rest of your chain (perhaps something else is to blame?) but maybe open the box up and re-seat all of the harnesses and any sort of cards that are inside. Perhaps something has come loose in your travels.

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

Just curious: what kind of rack is the HD24 mounted in? Both of mine are mounted in padded cases, one of which is extreme heavy-duty. The other is in a padded "gig bag" and it sits on heavily padded lids during the gig. The whole sha-bang sits on a wheeled hand truck (see pic). I have been subjected to some pretty hard-core levels on occasion and so far I have not had trouble with dropouts.

Also, when you say "dropout," do you mean "drops out of record" or do you mean "dropouts in the data stream"?

However, at one point my AD16 was suffering from random dropouts. As it turns out, one of the expansion cards had jiggled loose. Once the card was properly seated, I had no trouble.

I don't know what is in the rest of your chain (perhaps something else is to blame?) but maybe open the box up and re-seat all of the harnesses and any sort of cards that are inside. Perhaps something has come loose in your travels.

Mine is an SKB case without padding which i know isnt optimal but i have used it with external padding all around it and had a drop out..

With the drop outs the unit just stops recording.. Ive never been looking right at it when it happens but ive heard you get an error message such as "hard drive error" just before it stops. on the surface of it that would suggest a writing issue or data throughput problem, but if a controller chip that handles the HDD is vunerable to resonance at a certain frequency that could freak it out also..

There's another reason why i dont think the caddies are loosing connection.. When you have the machine recording and you move the hard drive out slightly so it crashes, it gives you an error that says "hard drive removed" or something of that nature, but then after you secure the drive again it wont allow you to start recording right away, you have to turn it off and back on.. This doesnt happen with the drop out problem, you can start recording again straight away without cycling the power..

I havent had any problems for the last 5 recordings ive done, but ive been really careful where i place it when setting up.. i will have another look inside it for anything that may have come loose, but the best remedy so far for me is to get it as far away from the stage and volume as i can.. If its got to be out at the FOH console i try and make sure there is something between the HD24 and the PA speakers to block the sound a bit..

Also i havent totally ruled out the possibility that its just a problem with Alesis manufacturing and some models suffer and others dont.. Maybe a hardware component changed along the way or they discovered the problem and fixed it on newer models.. I might try looking for a date of manufacture on mine and see if it corresponds to others who have seen drop outs also, maybe thats something for the yahoo group..

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

You don't necessarily need a venue with a large sound system.
IMO, all you need is a powerful enough speaker in front of the recorder.

I was thinking that also.. I was going to try some tests a while back but the best PA type speaker i can easily get access to is a 2x15 shitty brand job which i didnt think would offer up enough grunt..

I will definately look into something down the track when i get the opportunity.. I'll make sure to post anything i discover along the way also.. Right now the problem isnt affecting me as much since i got the DAW for backup.. Also ive been very careful with placement at the last few gigs and that has helped i think...

[Empiria]

Is there anybody here who have some experience with FostexD2424lv mkII? I don't see many people using this. I wonder why?

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by ebulb

I was thinking that also.. I was going to try some tests a while back but the best PA type speaker i can easily get access to is a 2x15 shitty brand job which i didnt think would offer up enough grunt..

A good (not to extreme) 8" woofer (aprox. Sd=200cm2 xmax 10mm p-p) reach 112dB SPL @ 100Hz @ 1 meter in a small baffled box in free air. Two of them side by side against the wall at the floor means an extra 18dB = 130dB SPL @ 1 meter.

Point sources means you lose 6dB for evey doubling of distance.
Up close you'll see something like 12dB extra = 142 dB SPL.

Using SOTA drivers like Scan Speak Revelator units will give you aprox 5dB extra = 147dB SPL.

Down one octave you lose 12 dB, down two octaves you lose 24dB.


My point is any decent pair of speakers in a corner with the HD24 right in front of them will expose it for levels not likely found in typical recording sessions.


/Peter

[ebulb]

Originally Posted by Audiop

My point is any decent pair of speakers in a corner with the HD24 right in front of them will expose it for levels not likely found in typical recording sessions.


/Peter

No worries.. I'll look into some experiments down the track.. Thanks.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Empiria

Is there anybody here who have some experience with FostexD2424lv mkII? I don't see many people using this. I wonder why?

External drive port is SCSI? I see they are selling a version now with an internal CF drive...kind of cool--I've had VERY good luck w/ CF in my Sound Devices recorders. (2.5 hrs on a 32 GB card...but it would need to be a fast card...) For me, re video, TC option doesn't offer 23.98.... I wasn't clear from the website exactly what format it records in, and if there is a translation needed to get the files off as wavs.... This machine has been avail in some form for a long time, and pro recordists went w/ the Alesis, even with the features the Fostex has and a comparable price, so.... I'd be curious if anyone here is using one of these regularly on location instead of other alternatives. (I've considered one of these for a backup to my laptop based rigs.)

(Looked at the manual--it looks like the CF card is there as a way of getting files off the recorder easily--converting
the proprietary record format to wavs on the way to the CF. Anyone tried this?)

phil p

[recordinghopkins]

It is ALWAYS a good time to buy an HD24xr. Mine does the safety job on location, then handles the d/a from daw in the mix studio. No regrets. It's cost compared to what I have spent on the rest of my gear, well it's really funny that I rely on it the most and it has yet to disappoint. I especially like that you can switch the input modes for pairs of channels from a->d or d->a, that makes it useful for tracking and overdubs too, when you would be using a/d and d/a at one time.