How should I spend 3 grand on a field recorder?

[PoxyMusic]

I'm a sound designer who has all the mics I need…Neumann RSM 191, 2x Earthworks QTC 40ks, Neuman KMR 82, Sennheiser 441, C-Ducer contact mics…but sadly no recorder. Multitracking is very nice for sound effects, though not mandatory. I'd rarely use more than 4 channels.

I've got $3,000 to spend.

Should I get:
1. A Sound Devices 552, use the onboard recorder for now and save up for a portable multitrack a la Tascam DR680. That way I have sweet preamps forever that I can use on whatever bit bucket is convenient and relatively inexpensive.

2. Get the DR680 and two SD USB pre 2's. Have $800 left over.

3. Get the DR680 and a pair of Sennheiser MKH 40s (I lied abut having all the mics I need...you never have enough mics)

4. Get a SD 702, and have an extra thousand left over.

The DR680 isn't ideal but heck I made great recordings on my HHB Portadat that are still very useful. I like the idea of having 5 great preamps...it's not as if they're going to become obsolete anytime soon...though I'd miss the pre-record function of the other recorders.


Thoughts?

[sonare]

I have a DR680 and it is a bargain for what it can do-- but I am wondering why you would want a recorder with 6 inputs and then buy TWO USBpre2s for a total of twelve tracks? It will only record 8.

Rich

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by sonare

am wondering why you would want a recorder with 6 inputs and then buy TWO USBpre2s for a total of twelve tracks? It will only record 8.

Rich

I'd bypass the Tascam pre's and go line in. I already have 2 channels of Schoeps preamps, so then I'd be able to have great preamps on all 6 analog inputs.

[sonare]

Absolutely no question that the Schoeps are fantastic, however you might want to listen to New portable multitrack recorders from Tascam posts #113 and #132 before forming a permanent opinion--

IOW the 680 pres are better than you might assume-- I would use the Schoeps and the built-in pres but it's your cash. For as much hassle as setting all that up will be-- I would buy the Nagra VI and be done with it.

Rich

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by sonare

IOW the 680 pres are better than you might assume-- I would use the Schoeps and the built-in pres but it's your cash. For as much hassle as setting all that up will be-- I would buy the Nagra VI and be done with it.

Rich

Wow, thanks Rich! I did prefer the A track, but not by much at all. Also true that having 4 more channels of outboard pres are a hassle.

Nagra VI is out of my price range, but I think I can live with the 680 pres after all.

I'll buy you a beer with the 2 grand I saved!

[mgoorevich]

Get Sound Devices 552. In this case you have fantastic mixer and very good 2 track recorder. It's great for atmos, room tones and SFX (I do it all the time).
You may need some more schoeps mics or Senns MKH8040 or MS setup.
However you've got 191, so I assume you have a great MS rig.
I used to have a higher grade (than 680) Tascam HD-P2. It's a good machine. But much lower league than SD. Don't forget reliability issue. My device broke down twice and I spoke with the techs in Japan (I had some of the first recorders back than). These folks know not too much what means bullet proof and humidity and heat and they were wonder how a real professional can connect condenser mic with phantom power on! They have no experience in the field...it's even not Fostex.
With being said, I like Tascam for overall quality.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

I'll buy you a beer with the 2 grand I saved!

Just send me $1k and call it a day--

Seriously-- glad enlightenment took place. The cold reality is that most clients are perfectly happy with the product that someone with some good mics and musical sensitivity can provide. We Slutz get our shorts in a wad far too often and then spend our way back to self-perceived acceptability. If it isn't easy to hear a difference in either "A" or "B", then either will do. Less fun, however.

Similar to the adage that the least expensive way of solving an automotive problem is fix the old one rather than buy something else.

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by mgoorevich

I used to have a higher grade (than 680) Tascam HD-P2. It's a good machine. But much lower league than SD. Don't forget reliability issue. -----
With being said, I like Tascam for overall quality.

Hard to tell WHAT you are saying. I have used a P2 many times, I own a trouble-free DR680, and have used a 2tk SD. They are all different with different data storage options. Any of them will make a superb recording with a pair of excellent mics. The 680 allows you to use 4 more mics if you need them, which I find to be really handy.

Rich

[mgoorevich]

Originally Posted by sonare

Hard to tell WHAT you are saying. I have used a P2 many times, I own a trouble-free DR680, and have used a 2tk SD. They are all different with different data storage options. Any of them will make a superb recording with a pair of excellent mics. The 680 allows you to use 4 more mics if you need them, which I find to be really handy.

Rich

OK. As well as I understand you record mainly in clean, air conditioned locations such as churches (just visited your site), concert halls, clubs e.t.c.
These are not locations I am talking about and they are not requiring special reliability from the equipment.
How about recording in the tank? Or what do you say about humidity and high temperatures while being under the stress on film location?
Or being recording on military boat with a rain coat? (BTW only one mic can withstand direct water impact Sennheiser MKH416.)
And in these conditions Tascam HD-P2 failed to work. Once it didn't power on with 3 sets of fresh batteries another time it started giving strange mid range tonal interference on both mic inputs.
Again the quality is fine. However Tascam has the noise floor much higher than SD. Dynamic range is also lower from SD recorders.
One more thing. I hate the buttons placement and operational inconvenience of Tascam machine. This always drove me mad. E.G. To turn power off on HD-P2 you must perform 2 operations. And the "OK" button is very difficult to reach in over shoulder recording.

[sonare]

I think you should be arguing with the OP, not me!

[Remoteness]

Dude, if you don't like the machine don't buy it.
No one has a gun to your head.

Oh, and by the way the MKH416 cannot withstand direct water impact.
I have lost audience mics during rainstorms in the past...

It is not ideal, but when there's a chance of a storm we now place magnum sized condoms over the mics to help protect them from any potential water damage.

Originally Posted by mgoorevich

OK. As well as I understand you record mainly in clean, air conditioned locations such as churches (just visited your site), concert halls, clubs e.t.c.
These are not locations I am talking about and they are not requiring special reliability from the equipment.
How about recording in the tank? Or what do you say about humidity and high temperatures while being under the stress on film location?
Or being recording on military boat with a rain coat? (BTW only one mic can withstand direct water impact Sennheiser MKH416.)
And in these conditions Tascam HD-P2 failed to work. Once it didn't power on with 3 sets of fresh batteries another time it started giving strange mid range tonal interference on both mic inputs.
Again the quality is fine. However Tascam has the noise floor much higher than SD. Dynamic range is also lower from SD recorders.
One more thing. I hate the buttons placement and operational inconvenience of Tascam machine. This always drove me mad. E.G. To turn power off on HD-P2 you must perform 2 operations. And the "OK" button is very difficult to reach in over shoulder recording.

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Dude, if you don't like the machine don't buy it.

Just discussing the relative merits of each machine, that's all. mgoorevich brings some valid points of criticism.

Originally Posted by Remoteness

No one has a gun to your head.

But if they did, which machine would capture the sound better? Does the 680 have -20 pads? Is it blood-proof? I think not!

[ysmgj]

^^^

i'll admit it, i loled at that

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

Dude, if you don't like the machine don't buy it.

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

Just discussing the relative merits of each machine, that's all. mgoorevich brings some valid points of criticism.

What are you talking about PoxyMusic?
I wasn't directing my comments towards you.

Furthermore, mgoorevich in post number nine (09) was not discussing any relative merits of the machines you mentioned. From what I read, right or wrong, he seemed to be arguing with Sonar which led to my comment.

Originally Posted by Remoteness

No one has a gun to your head.

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

But if they did, which machine would capture the sound better? Does the 680 have -20 pads? Is it blood-proof? I think not!

If someone had a gun to my head I'd be more concern with how I would want to approach dismantling that gun than answering which machine would capture the sound best.

The Tascam DR-680 is a $900.00 USD street price (big bang for buck) machine; if I was interested in purchasing a machine like the ones you mentioned, I'd consider the Nagra VI and be done with it like Sonar stated. If I didn't have the bread, I'd save up and get the one I wanted. If economics played a roll, I'd jump on that DR-680 (or even two of them) in a NY minute.

Furthermore, are any of the machines mentioned in this thread weatherproof, waterproof, blood-proof or even virus-proof?

I don't recall you stating this need in your original post, but if you do need a machine that can repel moisture and beyond, there are a few solutions; you can buy the machine that fits your needs and add an extruded textile or film moisture barrier (of some sort) that could improve the reliability of the machine under those extreme conditions.

I mean, we have used condoms on mics when it's applicable, so anything is possible if it's logical.

Oh, and if I needed a -20 dB pad and the device didn't have one, I'd just grab one from my audio kit and be done with it.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by mgoorevich

However Tascam has the noise floor much higher than SD.

This should not be an issue with condenser microphones having a normal sensitivity (> 10 mV/Pa).

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

What are you talking about PoxyMusic?
I wasn't directing my comments towards you.

I know you weren't. I just thought your comment wasn't really furthering the conversation.

[Remoteness]

I'm so sorry you feel this way, but I respecfully disagree.
All I wanted to do is keep the thread in line.
I apologize if I messed up your thread.

Originally Posted by PoxyMusic

I know you weren't. I just thought your comment wasn't really furthering the conversation.

[Arthur Stone]

I have to agree that it's worth saving/splashing-the-cash for the ultimate object of desire and capability; whilst researching the portable recorder market a few years ago I was fortunate that the field was limited and the Sound Devices 702 was the obvious choice.
It's possibly the best purchase I made.

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

I apologize if I messed up your thread.

No big thing, just the internet! I do appreciate all the advice.

[jacobfarron]

Just a note about the SD 552: it does not regen timecode, and IMO that limits it's usability in the field (unless you use a lock-it or hard line). I recently used Zaxcom TRX900AA transmitters as camera hops and looped the timecode out into the 552s and that worked well.