Strings section recording help needed

[Pomello]

I need to track a section of about 15 (8vlns,4vlas,3cellos,I guess) in a pretty big room (200 sq/mt,6 mt height),the studio has a lot of mikes mainly u87 but also u67,m149 and AKG C24.Will you use Decca tree+few spot mics
or better XY for the room+close mics?.Any suggestion appreciated,thanks for your help!

[jpupo74]

Hi,

How many U67's an 149's do they have?

Pupo

[Pomello]

2+2

[jpupo74]

Hi,

I'll go with an open spaced AB using the 149's.
Spot violins and violas with the 67's
Spot cellos with U87's

If it's really anice room you can work with the 149's and they shoukd do the work. What preamps do you have? This is as imprtant as your mics.

Good luck,

Jose

[Pomello]

The only pres that I got are a Neve series 51xxx console,surely not the best Neve made,aren't you worried with phase issues with the A/B pair?

[fifthcircle]

I think the most important question is: "How are the strings functioning in this recording?"

Are you recording a section for a classical release? Are you recording for a film score? Are you recording backing tracks for a pop album? Something else?

Each has their approaches and without knowing what you intend to do, it is hard to give good advice.

--Ben

[Pomello]

Thanks everybody for your help,the strings are for a rock song with drums,bass and electric gtrs (clean sounds).

[fifthcircle]

I'd consider one of a couple things- both use a main array with spots...

First would be to use the C-24 in a blumlein configuration (perhaps X-Y, really depends on the room). Perhaps, use a couple of the M149's in omni as flanks at about 2 meters either side of your C-24. Will give you a open, yet solid image with good mono compatability.

The second choice would be 3 omnis in a decca tree, perhaps with flanks (but not necessarily). Not knowing exactly your mic setup it is hard to say, but small diaphragm mics work well (ie B&K, Schoeps, Neumann). If you can put spheres on them to get that "M50" kind of pickup, that would be an advantage for your image. I use 4006 omnis with spheres or Schoeps with MK21 caps for many of my trees. MKH800's also make pretty fine decca trees... If you had 3 67's or 149's, I'd think you could do quite well with those, but it doesn't sound like you have that judging from your previous posts.

After getting the main overhead mics set up, I'd get spots on throughout the string section. Depending on the section, I may put up one mic for every stand or perhaps 2 stands. In the mix, you'll be able to play the close sound versus the ambient/ensemble sound depending on what the rest of the arrangement is like. I like smooth small-diaphragm mics on violins (ie Schoeps, Sennheiser MKH, etc...), and bigger sounding large diaphragm mics on violas, cellos and basses.

Sounds like you'll have plenty of gear to use and you'll be fine in the end...

--Ben

[Pomello]

Thanks for your advice Ben!

Al

[leifislive]

Hi,

I have to second fifthcircle, if you have the access to those, have fun and check the best spot carefully. Don'T be too close, for this will not result in a natural sound, but it depends largely on your taste and the overall sound of the band...

Another easy way, especially if you want to be more free to place the strings in the mix is take good cardioids (like the schoeps mk4 or km184 or mbho ka200 (those are not as bad)) do coincident XY setup and a spot on every group.

fool proven and not as bad is an ORTF like setup (two cardioids, spacing 17cm, angle 110°) with two cardioids.

I usually do ORTF with flanking spots if I have to do an "easy to launch live recording" of a (string) orchestra.

For the u87, I am a cellist and once my cello was recorded with an u87, I didn't like it...

Have fun

Leif

[klaukholm]

One way to spot the strings can be to get mics flown above each section (ca headhight) pointing down at an angle away from the main array. Spread them evenly in the strings. It is a good way to cover 2 stands at a time. As a player in sessions I have seen good results from bass and cello with U87 in cardioid, km84, dpa 4006 (omni), Schoeps mk21 (wide cardioid), and a AKG hypercardioid (can't remember the model). Frankly they all work fine as spots.

Good luck!

kjetil

[Pomello]

I guess I will go with AKG 24 XY/Blumlein+flanks Neumann M149 omni+3spots violins+violas Neumann KM 84/86 and cellos with Neumann U 47 fet or Geffel UM 92,let me know you comments guys if you like it.Thanks

Al

[leifislive]

Hi,

yeah, why not...

some ideas to think about:

I wouldn't use a large diaphragm as a spot, unless you have to. large diaphragms for low frequencies, is, from a technical point of view, nonsense, since a mic doesn't work like a speaker...

I am not too familiar with the c24, but I suspect it to be a fixed 90 degree xy stereo - is it?

depending on the arrangement, consider to place the violins left (1st) and right(2nd) or the violas right (not like the classical american sitting order 1st-2nd-vla-vc), might give some nice effects.

hope this helps to create some more ideas for your setup.

best,
leif

[fifthcircle]

Originally Posted by Pomello

I guess I will go with AKG 24 XY/Blumlein+flanks Neumann M149 omni+3spots violins+violas Neumann KM 84/86 and cellos with Neumann U 47 fet or Geffel UM 92,let me know you comments guys if you like it.Thanks

Al

Sounds pretty good to me...

Originally Posted by leifislive

I wouldn't use a large diaphragm as a spot, unless you have to. large diaphragms for low frequencies, is, from a technical point of view, nonsense, since a mic doesn't work like a speaker...

My recommendation is because most large diaphragm mics tend to have a larger/beefier kind of sound. This is a sound that likely works better with the lower frequencies rather than your violins. Violins will certainly sound ok, but I prefer small diaphragms there...

I am not too familiar with the c24, but I suspect it to be a fixed 90 degree xy stereo - is it?

Not fixed... The C-24 is a stereo tube mic- basically 2 C-12's. Really a wonderful sounding mic when they work well. Like any vintage mic, they often need help, but they are great when they work. Anyways, there is a pattern selection on the power supply. I can't remember if you can vary the capsule angle. AKG's other stereo mics all have the ability to change the angle of capsules- something that can be a lifesaver.

For what it's worth, kjetil's suggestions on your spot micing is great advice...

--Ben

[klaukholm]

If you are worried about the low frequencies you should not be using a cardioid at all. However, I find that the bass rarely needs the support in the lower partials unless you are recording also sprach zarathustra with its low H (B natural for you americans )and low C soli. bass tends to get dull sounding for distance reasons and can often benefit from a little sparkle.

The danish radio standard setup for Danish radio symphony (and us when we visit) is one u87 per stand sitting low (mostly for visual reasons) for the basses, and the 4022 DPA for the rest of the strings (they are danish after all).
It always feels like you are doing a movie score when you play there, but they do get a very natural and balanced sound (40+ mics). I think they like this setup since they do live broadcast and need the control it gives since they dont get time to fiddle with micplacement. They have also done some massively complicated math to time align alll the mics based on direct sound to early reflection ratios etc in that particular room.

kjetil

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Pomello

The only pres that I got are a Neve series 51xxx console,surely not the best Neve made,aren't you worried with phase issues with the A/B pair?

Hi Pomello,

A B is used by almost every classical recording engineer nowadays. You are recording a kindda small ensemble, you should be able to use your 149's and 67's, wich I consider are the more suitable mics you have for this purpose. Remember the Neve pre's u t going to use will color your signal and that'll be enough, maybe the tubes will be too much.
Strings will always be strings, from Rock strings to Classic strings, they'll always be strings. When you read about A B stereo microphones techniques maybe you'll find that MS offers mono compatibility and bla bla, BUT, if you can obtain a nice and balanced sound, then u r done, that's what counts. You can continue spoting, and I do really recoomend it. U 67's have been used for this purpose through history and they'll continue to be an overall beautifull spot microphone.

How separated r your flanks gonna be?

Good Luck,

Pupo

[Pomello]

Hey Pupo,

the flanks will be about 4 mt. apart,for this purpose also I got B&K omnis to choose as alternative to the 149,let me know what do you think.Thanks everybody.

[zarembo]

fascinating thread guys!

THANK YOU and happy new year!

[Igotsoul4u]

I think you should go with the decca tree config. 87's will work fine on the tree in omni. If you get it setup properly you will have 80% of your sound covered. I am always blown away at how good the tree sounds on its own. Without knowing the acoustic charateristics of your room its hard to recommend measurements for the tree height and LCR mic spacing. I used to work in a fairly large room (85L x 55W x 35H) The tree usually ended up at about 11 ft high. The mics were about 30 inches off the center of the T-bar. I can't remember because it would change with each ensemble. These articles below are kinda cool to check out. Good luck.

http://mixguides.com/microphones/bas...ree_september/

http://mixonline.com/products/review...nn_decca_tree/

[mixerguy]

Be sure to use your ears, and not be afraid to move mics in the first 5 minutes of the session!!!

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Pomello

Hey Pupo,

the flanks will be about 4 mt. apart,for this purpose also I got B&K omnis to choose as alternative to the 149,let me know what do you think.Thanks everybody.

Hi Pomello,

Well man...B&K's.
Some people recommend to mantain one color on this type of recordings. Neumanns or B&K's or AKG's...but you don't have to do it this way...do you?

As I mentioned before, your target should be to capture a well balance ensemble with just the AB pair. Some times to capture the center image that's usually lost in AB recording techniques I used an ORTF in the middle and add it just to the point where I can listen to my center image with some detail.

Having B&K's, 149's and 67's, you can also try two layers. Due to the huge different results you can obtain with 149's and B&K's, I'll try 149's AB (100cm-125cm) plus a second layer of B&K's AB (160cm-flanks...you know) and about 1 meter away from the first AB. That will give you detailed strings and tthe ambience. U67's...I insist...this should be your spots...but that's only my opinion...beware of cellos...usually they are lost easily on the mix..spot mic the cello (87).

Good Luck,
Pupo

[Jim vanBergen]

I have to add:
make sure you monitor the mono folddown early in the process for no phasing issues, if you are not tracking each mic independently. (Hmmm...Why aren't you?) Once you confirm a solid mono, then mix the session in stereo with confidence. The mix engineer for the rock song will undoubtably want stereo strings but may choose to slide them in the image based upon the other variables in the tune- so again, make sure your mono compatibility is solid. Wide A/B is always good and Decca is ideal but YOU have to drive the seating arrangement to make either the Decca tree or A/B work correctly, since this is no orchestra, it's a string session. Seating is key to get proper mic positioning.

Cheers!

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen

I have to add:
make sure you monitor the mono folddown early in the process for no phasing issues, if you are not tracking each mic independently. (Hmmm...Why aren't you?) Once you confirm a solid mono, then mix the session in stereo with confidence. The mix engineer for the rock song will undoubtably want stereo strings but may choose to slide them in the image based upon the other variables in the tune- so again, make sure your mono compatibility is solid. Wide A/B is always good and Decca is ideal but YOU have to drive the seating arrangement to make either the Decca tree or A/B work correctly, since this is no orchestra, it's a string session. Seating is key to get proper mic positioning.

Cheers!

Yep! thumbsup

Pupo

[Pomello]

Do you think I can set up a Decca tree with 2 M149 and 1 AKG The tube (all omni)?A friend (engineer) working in the same studio told me that,is the section big enough?I'll record everything (stereo couple/tree+spots)on separated tracks.
Thanks

[fifthcircle]

Don't bother with a decca tree unless you have 3 of the same mics. You just won't get the same result.

As for 4006's as flanks- they work great. They may even be better than some of the alternatives (I own 4 of them and use them for orchestral recordings all the time).

Don't get too complicated either- with all this conflicting advice, you really could get yourself in trouble. Remember, first time you do something, simple is best. You'll get yourself out of a lot of phase trouble if you pan everything L-C-R (as I mentioned in an earlier post). Your main array absolutely should be done this way, but also if you start doing a lot of partial panning in your spots, you may get it to work, but you also may get a phase/mono mess.

In any case, if you can't multitrack every mic, record your mains to 2 tracks and try to get your spots on their own tracks. That way you'll be able to easily test phase and image placement in a mix situation rather in the pressure of having a bunch of musicians waiting for you.

As somebody else said, don't be afraid to move the mics in the first few minutes of the session. Also, listen carefully as they warm up- that sometimes is your only real sound check...

--Ben

[dbbubba]

The big question is: ARE YOU GOING TO STACK THEM?

I have tracked string dates for years and I can tell you how to get fantastic strings.
I have also recorded quite a few orchestras.
They are not the same thing.

If you are just using the players that you describe then you might not need to stack them, but what you describe is not a HUGE string sound. More below. At least you understand that you don't need basses (unless there are solo string section parts.)
Basses tend to play out of tune when playing to a track.

If you do plan on stacking (double/triple/quad track) them then the X/Y or coincident pair or Deca tree will capture A LOT of room tone and it will build up and be twice as loud (or more) in the end. The reason that you will have too much room ambience if you stack them using traditional x/y or sereo pair micing is because if you doubled tracked them for example you have the fifteen players twice plus the room tone TWICE. If you had thirty players in the room (the same number as stacking them twice) the room ambience wouldn't double. You need to keep the room tone in balance if you plan on stacking them. Does this make sense?

If you plan on stacking them then I'd use mics over the players. With the mics positioned there you will get a more close up sound and WAY less room tone. Use the best mics available and put one between each player (7 on the violins / 3 on the violas / 1 on the cellos) skipping the space between the players.

With fifteen players you'd only need one pass again.


BUT I WOULDN'T DO IT THAT WAY.

ADVICE:
2 violins / 2 violas / 1 cello (a very tried and true balance of instruments)
get the VERY best players available
Find a violin and viola player who record A LOT (they work as your "interpreter")
stack them four times (you can try, but fifth is not much of an improvement)

By using fewer players and stacking them you are able to get a better string sound because:
#1) it's easier to get 2 good violin and viola players and a cello player
#2) you will have five people's interpretation of the part intead of fifteen
#3) because of #2 the session will go faster
#4) because of #2 the track will sound tighter much quicker
#5) the track will be more in tune
#6) GETTING FIFTEEN PLAYERS EXPERIENCED AND COMFORTABLE WITH RECORDING WITH HEADPHONES IS VERY RARE (maybe in NYC , LA, or London or a BIG city)

I have recorded players from the DSO (Dallas Symphony Orchestra) and they are as good as it gets (they are an RCA Red Label orchestra.) Still, they are "jicky" in the studio. A few have their own little one ear headphone sets, but overall they are out of their element. I had a producer wanting to impress a big client, so he hired a lot of people to play instead of overdubbing. The outcome wasn't very good and he ended up hiring what I describe above and stacking them four times.

String players are used to playing (phrasing, tuning, etc..) as an ensemble. They are not used to playing along with a pre-recorded rock track. They play in an orchestra and not a band! Even the most experienced players are out of their "comfort zone" in the studio. I had a group of five players that knew how to work VERY quickly and I used them for years. There are a few players who just "get it" right off and they can make the session go much quicker. You need a few of them.

Good Luck!

Danny Brown

[klaukholm]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

At least you understand that you don't need basses.
Basses tend to play out of tune when playing to a track.

What bassplayers are you using?
You simply need to hire better bassplayers, not modify the score.
The problem you were faced with was DSO bassplaying.
Try the Houston guys next time you score - the HSO has one of the best bass sections in the US.

Frankly I would be more concerned with viola pitch.

With 15 players you are probably looking at
5-5-3-2 or 6-5-2-2 if you have no basses and a standard string score.
I would make a point to find out how they sit and how many they are on each part well ahead of the date.
Also get a score as soon as you can.

kjetil

[Pomello]

Thanks for your very intersting advices,probably we will double the strings and to me was already clear not to do it with distant/room mics,will be difficult find out the better players to do the doubling with,since I will meet them at the session,so I will try to make it work with the whole section.I have 3 hours for 2 songs.

cheers Al

[Roland]

There is a lot of good individual advice in the many posts above, the only thing I would add is that whatever your feeling in advance, make sure you have the spots. On head mics whever they be AB, Decca tree, XY, ORTF with or without outriggers you are unlikely to get something satisfactory alone. In order to make the strings "sit" in your mix the sound you may need for your final mix most likely will be a long way off what you would require for a string only session. In rock tracks things like dynamics would render most "naturalistic" string recordings useless. The harsher, abrasive sound of spots (placed 1 per desk) will get softened a lot by the rest of the band instruments running. Remember you can always use less of them (or even discard them if you so wish) there is not much you can do to rescue a recording made with the head mic's alone if it doesn't work.

Tracking a few players several times as against using a larger section is a more debateable point, both can work well (dependent on the players you have access to), but both will produce a different texture, depending on what sound will best fit the track and on the producer/orchestrators decision, I wouldn't pass comment as it won't be well received.

Regards



Roland

[Pomello]

Very helpful Roland,thank you.

Al