Grand piano tracking -- the lid is killing me!

[NorseHorse]

Dear Classical Piano Recordists Anonymous: read first (twice), then respond.

There are many different piano aesthetics, and the Original Poster tried to give you a description of the sound he is going for: "jazz/Brad Mehldau". So you give him advice on how to get a different sound entirely?!

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

You are not asking the eventual playback system to recreate the sound that hit the audience-- it's much more the case that you are asking it to recreate the sound that emanated from the piano. Put another way-- the speakers should pump a sound into the air, the way the original piano did.

Is this in any way sensible ... ?

Not to me, unless your listening room has the volume and acoustics of the original space the recording was made in.

I know we've had this discussion before and that you prefer a closer setup than some ... but (speaking for myself) I strive to create a recorded impression that also best captures the contribution that the acoustical space surrounding the instrument provides to enhance the musical effect. Of course most listening rooms also provide their own layer of coloration in playback, but I doubt that could ever mimick the impression of a concert hall. But as always, YMMV.

Cheers!

[Storyville]

Originally Posted by NorseHorse

Dear Classical Piano Recordists Anonymous: read first (twice), then respond.

There are many different piano aesthetics, and the Original Poster tried to give you a description of the sound he is going for: "jazz/Brad Mehldau". So you give him advice on how to get a different sound entirely?!

But that's the classic GS move. If the question is, "how can I get the best sound out of my U87", someone will almost invariably answer with either "U87s are overrated" or "Try a 251."

Though in fairness - it's really hard to figure out exactly how to get Brad Mehldau's sound - it's super tight, but really full at the same time (in the ensemble stuff at least). Greg Koller engineered the more recent stuff - he's a badass. Really good at electronica influenced stuff - and I think he takes some of that very non-jazz background and brings it into his engineering for contemporary jazz work (deliberately).

[Jabbaz]

Originally Posted by Storyville

But that's the classic GS move. If the question is, "how can I get the best sound out of my U87", someone will almost invariably answer with either "U87s are overrated" or "Try a 251."

Though in fairness - it's really hard to figure out exactly how to get Brad Mehldau's sound - it's super tight, but really full at the same time (in the ensemble stuff at least). Greg Koller engineered the more recent stuff - he's a badass. Really good at electronica influenced stuff - and I think he takes some of that very non-jazz background and brings it into his engineering for contemporary jazz work (deliberately).

Couldn't agree more. Listening to Mehldau recordings I've often wondered how he gets that sound. My best guess is a blend between close and far mics somehow avoiding any evidence of phasing.

[jglamar]

Originally Posted by Storyville

This is an interesting philosophical question.

There's not a thing to be afraid of in pulling the top off a piano, if you have assent from the owner of the instrument. It's nowhere near as scary as one might imagine. With the lid off, though, the piano acts differently and needs to be miced differently. In an orchestral setting this works well if the piano part is not predominant (Firebird, for instance, or Appalachian Spring). For situations where the piano is the main instrument, lid off is certainly still an option (and opens up some new configuration possibilities because of the improved sight-lines), but micing it for recording purposes would take some experimentation since the lid's natural isolating quality is not there to help you.

[ESL]

Howdy,
I agree that removing the lid shouldn't be a big deal. There are usually 2-3 easily removable pins that need to be pulled before it's lifted easily by 2 people. It you make sure to stow it in a safe place and then replace it just as carefully, it's really no different than removing the desk. It's also less stress on the instrument than rolling it around or even playing it.

Anyhow, if you can't pull the lid it may be worth trying to position a piece of rigid fiberglas, foam or even a moving pad between it and your mics. I also like 414s over the hammers for the close/percussive sound but -like another poster mentioned- tend to favor small omnis (e.g. DPA 4060) when I can't remove the lid. For some solo stuff without the benefit of additional mics further back, you may need to deploy 3 mics up close to get the instrument's full range.

Apologies if someone else posted the same 2¢. If so, consider this a +1 or +x or whatever.

[anonymouse]

i know who records brad and he told me how he records him live.

get some schoeps cards and get them in close to the hammers.

[7rojo7]

UM70s over the cross in xy, jazz, clearest I've heard
put a blanket over the lid