Pros and cons of recording like this

[Andi Rauscher]

if one musician makes a mistake, all musicians have to play again. nerve wrecking.
--> Do you guys know your stuff????????????????

spill into other microphones.
--> you´ll always have e.g. the bass on the overheads etc....
----> no "clean" recording, but maybe, that´s exactly what you are looking for? also you will not be able to cut, copy, past, beat detective, etc.. parts!
It is on tape "only" the way you played it, and that´s it.


i personally wopuldn´t work that way until the band is damn perfect. And I have not met that band yet...

good luck, and post some pictures, no matter what you do!!
sounds interesting!!

Andi

[SiliconAudioLab]

Everybody's close mic'd like an intimate sound stage AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT:

3 pairs of stereo mics at different trajectories in the hall:

a pair about 15 feet back,

another pair half way back,

another pair 3/4's of the way back.

Andi's right. You better make sure you're rehearsed (or at least play the right notes). If you DO make a mistake the close mic'ing will be fixable and the rear mics will have such a wash that they'll be much easier to edit with xfades in PT (or whatever DAW).

For example:

If you mess up your guitar lead (& you will) you can retake the close mic. without the whole band - right there on the spot.

Now, certainly there would have been takes where you DIDN'T mess up and since the "hall" mics are more "verby" you can cut and splice the whole band playing at THAT point.

Try this at home:

Record your guitar (or whatever instr.) print a dry track and a stereo reverb track. Now splice just the reverb track around (move 2nd chorus into first chorus - whatever...) but don't edit the dry one. Works pretty well.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by SiliconAudioLab

If you mess up your guitar lead (& you will) you can retake the close mic. without the whole band - right there on the spot.

Now, certainly there would have been takes where you DIDN'T mess up and since the "hall" mics are more "verby" you can cut and splice the whole band playing at THAT point.

That doesn't always work though...it depends on how bad the clinker is and exactly how much leakage there is, not to mention what it actually sounds like. Sometimes (read; most) of the time the bad notes are still audible in the other instruments and the aburpt change in tone is pretty noticeable...but IME it's the odd stuff...the tone of the hats & snare drum change where the guitar was punched for those seven seconds. For something like that I'd punch a whole section because the changein timbre isn't as noticable when going from one part to another.

Still man...just make sure that the leakage is bareable for mixing and that you like the sounds going in. Tracking like that is totally about commitment, from the playing to the sounds. You'll be able to change it to degrees but rarely drastically.

Are you multi-tracking or commiting to a stereo-mix and layering vocals on top of that?

[Gio]

Are you multi-tracking or commiting to a stereo-mix and layering vocals on top of that?[/QUOTE]


Well, everything will be recorded with pro tools and then I will add vocals and other few things in an other studio...

...am I going wrong with the whole process??
..sorry guys...I need help 'cause... I'm only a musician...and recording is not my territory!!!

[SiliconAudioLab]

Yep, I agree Jay. The best thing is to get the notes right and retake right there when needed. Remeber, however, the whole point of the auditorium is to capture the auditorium sound and there will be times when things need fixing.

So you can also do multiple takes of the enitre song all the way through. Then there may be enough to cut n'splice if needed keeping the whole sound stage in tact but having variations (where things went bad) to splice in a new chorus/verse/bridge etc...

I've done lots of lead singer tracks like this. And the difference between what performer sang live there compared to what you get from the studio retakes later, will actually make for some sweet chorusing or doubling - HOWEVER - the singer will HAVE TO stick to his original performance that was captured that day. New words or re-phrasing etc... will not work.

Also while at the auditorium spend the time to capture all of the following:

1. Do your songs with singer(s). Band + Vocals

2. Now do retakes without vocals. Band only.

3. Now feed singer a headphone mix. Record vocals only (no live band).

3b. Also do the same with all backup vocals. Back-up vox only (no live band).

You won't regret the time you took capturing those takes. And the steps above work for guitar as well.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Oh and also, make sure all the stereo mics and the dry mics are not mixed there. SAVE ALL THE INDIVIDUAL PARTS UNMIXED.

For example for the vocals (provided you do the three steps mentioned above) you'll have at least; 1 dry track from his/her mic, and six (3 pairs) of the auditorium mics. all on seperate tracks.

And with all the high PT track count these days it should be no problem.

You will need many maaaaaaaaany snakes.

[cdog]

In my experience think all of the pros heavily outweigh all the cons in this style of recording.

Leakage shmeakage.

Its all about THAT feeling of the whole band nailing a take at once. BAM!

Don't be afraid to track the vocals live as well.... fuk the technical bullshit, its all about capturing a HOT performance, with ENERGY and EMOTION.

For many styles of music, FEELING the energy of the live band is ESSENTIAL to how the vocalist performs.

System of a Down tracks EVERYTHING live, including vocals, and last time I checked, those guys were doing "OK."

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by cdog

In my experience think all of the pros heavily outweigh all the cons in this style of recording.

Leakage shmeakage.

Its all about THAT feeling of the whole band nailing a take at once. BAM!

Don't be afraid to track the vocals live as well.... fuk the technical bullshit, its all about capturing a HOT performance, with ENERGY and EMOTION.

For many styles of music, FEELING the energy of the live band is ESSENTIAL to how the vocalist performs.

System of a Down tracks EVERYTHING live, including vocals, and last time I checked, those guys were doing "OK."

Agreed, you'd be crazy not to grab the whole band in a big auditorium!! Go for it. Hell, just print this thread and hand it to a studio engineer there. If you need to hire a guy - go for it. Set up lots of mics and play untill you drop. Then you'll have lots of usable takes later (when the money's gone).

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Andi Rauscher

if one musician makes a mistake, all musicians have to play again. nerve wrecking.
--> Do you guys know your stuff????????????????

spill into other microphones.
--> you´ll always have e.g. the bass on the overheads etc....
----> no "clean" recording, but maybe, that´s exactly what you are looking for? also you will not be able to cut, copy, past, beat detective, etc.. parts!
It is on tape "only" the way you played it, and that´s it.



Andi

This totally depends on what you're recording.

Flubs and squeaks will help get the Led Zep vibe. If you're doing pop/country, it's probably not the way to go.

When my band came off of our first tour, we made some live to 2 track recordings and they're waaay better than anything else we did, but of course, we were going for a greasy, booze-soaked kinda thing. We didn't end up cringing at any mistakes.

I agree with cdog. Just do it.

[Gio]

Thanks for all your precious infos guys!!

I've been in that room last week and the acoustic is awesome!!
The radio station's engineer told me that we can use a large selection of Neumanns, Shure, sehneisers and Akg's...

They are the biggest radio station in my country and so...they have tons of nice equipment.

A friend of mine...which is one of the biggest collectors of Ludwig drumkits in the world will lend me a beautiful vintage Green Sparkle fot that session...I'm really excited!!!!

I'm really into the sound of the 60's and 70's and this seems to me a good occasion to try and go for that sound...

thanks
gio

[Jules]

Dont be shocked if the sound on stage into the close mics is dry as a bone and doesnt sound like it is in a big room at all.

[doogie]

Originally Posted by Gio

Hello!!

As I said in other posts, in a few days I'll be recording my bands new single.

The place chosen for the recording session is a Radio Station's auditorium.
It has a very big stage and a great acoustic. Usally they use it to record classical music.We're looking for a Zep sound instead!!




We're going to record everything except the vocals.

These are our instruments:

-Vintage Ludwig DrumKit
-Marshall JTM 45 with 4*12
-Orange AD-30 with 2*12
-Hi-Watt 100W with 4*12
-Vox AC-30
-Ampeg Bass amp (???)

The stage is so big so we would like to record live, like in a concert, with no overdubs.


What are in your opinion the pros and cons of a recording session like this one???

Thanks!!
gio

hey alot of great jazz and classical records were made like this so why not ... really depends on how good you are as a band , how good your engineer is, HOW QUIET YOU ARE and how f....ing patient and/or persistant you all are

[SiliconAudioLab]

Thanks APOHStudios, glad somebody read my post. I've used this technique on many sample libraries and products I produced for E-mu Systems back in the day. When someone pays $100,000 for just few hundred notes YOU BETTER CAPTURE the essence of the instrument and the room and that's how we did it. Sampling or recording sessions - makes no difference.

The reason for the multi pairs is because (& this goes to Jules comment which is absolutely correct) there'll be NOTHING for the sound waves to come back at the close mics and give that medium/big room sound because the waves in a huge auditorium will take, like, three weeks to bounce back.

Experiment with the stereo pairs and distances. Use MS or XY or “big spread” at the medium far corners of the auditorium. Ask the engineer – he’ll set ‘em up.

Treat these hall mic stems like gold – NO, PLATINUM! Never mix other junk into them or fudge them in anyway (so make good back-ups first). Odds are in the end they’ll be mixed at @ 70% hall to 30% dry - YMMV - but they will be the nugget at the end of the deal.

Try and get some loud speakers for the singer, but also give the singer an instrument headphone mix from your best take there and have the singer sing solo - no amps - just him, the luscious auditorium and those mics. SHHHHHHHH! QUIET EVERYONE ON THE SET!

The hall (& subsequent hall mic stems) is worth it’s weight in Platinum and what separates things from the garage / bedroom operation.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Originally Posted by max cooper

"...but of course, we were going for a greasy, booze-soaked kinda thing. We didn't end up cringing at any mistakes..."

thumbsup

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by cdog

In my experience think all of the pros heavily outweigh all the cons in this style of recording.

Leakage shmeakage.

Its all about THAT feeling of the whole band nailing a take at once. BAM!

Don't be afraid to track the vocals live as well.... fuk the technical bullshit, its all about capturing a HOT performance, with ENERGY and EMOTION.

For many styles of music, FEELING the energy of the live band is ESSENTIAL to how the vocalist performs.

System of a Down tracks EVERYTHING live, including vocals, and last time I checked, those guys were doing "OK."

I'm with cdog on this one...

I record bands like this most of the time. And like Jules stated in his post, "Dont be shocked if the sound on stage into the close mics is dry as a bone and doesnt sound like it is in a big room at all. " I totally agree with his statement. It's all about how you position the instruments and how you place your mics and such.

Many times when I'm recording live, I can solo any instrument (even the drums) and get (almost) total isolation from the other instruments. It's all about how and where you place the transducers.

I love recording in large auditoriums with great acoustics. You got two types of recording methods to consider...

If they're a very tight sounding band I would set them up like they're performing for an audience but, if you're going for that "Led Zep" sound consider setting up the band with a lot of baffling and set up the drums so that it's sound is directed into the auditorium space. In other words, use the space as a huge drum booth...

Get that vintage Ludwig drum kit onstage and have the musicians surround the drummer but keep their Marshall, Orange, Hiwat, Vox and Ampeg amplifiers isolated via baffling or in completely different rooms. If you want more band amplification just open up the isolation until you get the sound you want from the properly placed stage and auditorium room mics. With that said, keep the instrument mics close and the room tone mics spaced to please the ear.

IMO, both recording techniques can work really well, it's all about what you're looking for in the space.

Again, in my opinion, there are more PROS than CONS with this type of recording session -- GO FOR IT GIO, you'll never want to do it any other way again.

[Gio]

thanks again everybody!!

Last thing....

Any suggestions about microphones???

gio

[Remoteness]

What's in your Locker?

[Gio]

It's pretty hard for me to say...I'm a newby here and don't know a lot of mics.

Well, the engineer from the radio station told me that they have a large selections of Neumann,Sehneiser, Shure and AKG.

They're the biggest radio station in the country....a lot of people told that they're plenty of high end mics.
I've heard about U-87, M-149....and sorry...can't remember...


I'm not that helpful....

[joaquin]

If you do not have time to try them out, I'd start to select from whatever you have in stereo pairs... for that function. The M149 should work great for the Room, but also may be the ticket for OHs. For close micing, stick to the sennheiser MD421(!?) if you have them and see if you have a Neumann 47fet for the kick(!?) The U87's can be great rooms/ OHs. See if you have acces to AKG 414 great OHs...and rooms. I guess your AE will have a pretty good Idea on what to use.
Best of luck and please post the results!!
Please if you can post a picture of the place!!

Originally Posted by SiliconAudiolab

Experiment with the stereo pairs and distances. Use MS or XY or “big spread” at the medium far corners of the auditorium. Ask the engineer – he’ll set ‘em up.

Treat these hall mic stems like gold – NO, PLATINUM! Never mix other junk into them or fudge them in anyway (so make good back-ups first). Odds are in the end they’ll be mixed at @ 70% hall to 30% dry - YMMV - but they will be the nugget at the end of the deal.

Hi there. Thanks for the great ideas about room micing!!
How do you deal with phase issues??
At mix, do you use all rooms at the same time or you choose the best fitting pair for the situation?
Thanks again...................Joaquin.

[SiliconAudioLab]

Great question. This is gonna go to engineering rather than just grab an axe and begin the jam (after all it IS Gearslutz not Jamslutz).

For phase between stems and other tracks:

At mix is when the fun really begins! These stems are like crack candy! They mix really well. Usually one of them will be the cherry and will then be applied to the dry mics.

However, think about this: you could use the huge "Big spread" mics for just the drums (w/ a Urei 1176 compressor on big "suck'nblow" mode) then lay in the closer mics for the more intimate or tighter stuff like bass and then the mid hall mics mixed with the guitars and vox.

Snort away. No reverb digital, plate even chamber can give you this flexiblity! use 4 sets of stereo mics and REALLY SEAL THE DEAL!

The wash will be pretty thick so phase will be less of an issue but you CAN slide (forward or back in time) the hall stems so the phase is parallel. And one thing I usually do is roll the bottom off to keep away the mud.

For phase between the stereo mics:

MS will get you proper phase pretty much right out of the shoot. XY will require more tweaking.

MS = ^> (2 arrows denote 2 mic directions roughly). Mic mid bodies are close enough to each other to be almost touching.

XY = /\ (2 slashes denote 2 mic directions roughly). Mic tips are close enough to each other to be almost touching.

Big spread = mics are placed *arbitrarily in large span.

Best way to check for phase is to capture the tracks to PT, zoom in and make sure the L & R waveforms are always reasonably parallel.

Headphones while moving things around gets you started. Performers ears, under the stress of the clock, are not always the best guide (yeah I just said that), so the engineer is usually the one who’ll nail this down. But, like I said, you can confirm phase accuracy by looking at some test takes on the computer screen.

*The Big spread. You place the mics up high on booms and they’re spread out approaching the rear edges of the room. It's very important to note they not be placed too close to the rear walls. Mics are pointing at the perfomers. It’s what I’ll use for the orchestra sections (when clients budget allows and I’m not forced to do it on VSL).

Phase vs. pleasant sound can be subjective with these “further back” mics as the wash is really thick but if they MUST be phase coherent or locked then check the L’s & R’s on PT (whatever DAW) and have boom operator move one of the booms until they’re locked and/or sound right.

Fibonacci's rule. Google that term. Use those divisions when placing mics with a ruler or laser. Roughly put, Fibonacci's (Leonardo Fibonacci) rule is the math involved in nature. For example the division (or multiplicity) when you measure you finger tip to the last joint (smallest section of the finger), next joint down is roughly 1.6 x bigger, next joint to the hand itself is 1.6 x bigger than that and finally the hand itself is 1.6 x bigger etc... Interesting stuff. Nature knows her stuff so when measuring where to start placing the booms, or stands, nice to have some of those Algo's.

[Gio]

...a small image of the place ...

[SiliconAudioLab]

I just edited the above long reply to fix some errors so just print this thread - read it, give it to the engineer and explain to him/her what you've gleened from the Slutz.

I do like the advise to just "GET YER JAM ON!" so concentrate on that but make SURE you capture them multiple hall mics. saved into 3 or four stereo pairs (or stems).

The engineer will know which mics will work. Make sure they're not just all set to "Omni". You'll want some direction (Hypercardioid) from some of those pairs.

Room looks killer! Come 'on give us some bigger pics.

[Gio]

...what about TLM 103 on guitar amps?


I'll look around for a bigger pic..

[SiliconAudioLab]

Sure 57's on guitar cabs.

The 103 (if there's a pair) goes in the hall. Since it's cardiod (directional) only I'd put the 103's in the Big Spread rear most mic group.

The 103 is quiet and will work well in that location. Gotta have two. Good news is they don't need to be factory matched.

[Gio]

...another pic of the place...
..really can't find a good one!!!

[SiliconAudioLab]

What are the room dimensions? Also before I forget, bring a few inchers or a cap gun and record a room "POP" once the hall mics are set up from the hall mics only.

Impulse verbs and such....

Tape the incher (U.S colloquial for small firecracker) to a stick. Hold the stick at the stage. Record this pop on ALL hall mics. Engineer will understand. If he (or more likely the owner) complains it'll be not because a cap gun or incher is dangerous but because they don't want you to give out the rooms impulse.

Which you will. And post it here. And we'll all be eternally grateful. Seriously. thumbsup

[SiliconAudioLab]

Hmmmm cool! You ARE gonna have backwash from the back of that stage. It looks DEEEEEEEEEELISCIOUS! So it's all good. Now that I see the picture I wood (pun intended) also be tempted to put some closer "overheads" right there on stage.

Hehe!! So make that 4 or FIVE pairs of stereo mics. In the case of the over heads they should be in that Big Spread position (ie not MS or XY) over head at the foot of the stage - about 12 ~ 15 feet high and about 1/4 of the way away from the LR sides of the stage.

Pull the guitar cabs away from that back wall a bit. Yes if the engineer says dropping the curtain down back there is working better - then trust him and try it.

[Gio]

I've asked you about the 103's 'cause I've seen them on Jack White's (white stripes)live guitar set up.
3 amps and 3 103's.

...still looking for a good pic!!!?!???!

[SiliconAudioLab]

If there's enough of the 103's to use in the hall AND on the guitar cabs then place them there along side the 57's. Don't mix them there though - keep the two guitar mic tracks independent from each other.