Nearfield monitors for classical piano recording and mixing

[Bechstein]

Hello everyone,

OK, here is the thing:

I want to replace my actual Alesis M1 Active MK2 monitors and I need a nearfield pair that fits rightly into my audio chain:

- A beautiful sounding old german grand piano
- A pair of Schoeps MK22
- A Nagra LB
- An Edirol UA-1000 audio interface

- All of this on a 60m3 room with bad acoustics (although improving day by day...).

- I'll be recording classical piano and violin and I have decided to do it at 24/96 (but, please, do not go into this matter...)

More data:

- A piano can go down to 29hz (not very common to play that notes, by the way) but my Schoeps won't go further than 40hz (to 20khz) anyway.

- The UA-1000 has one coaxial output and I'd like to use it to send the digital signal to the speakers, because I have a wonderul digital signal coming from the Nagra that I wouldn't like to convert again into analog, am I right? So I'd need the monitors had digital inputs because the master will be a 24/92 file that will never be forced to fit into a cd or similar, so it'll remain untouched "for ever and ever and ever"...

Another important thing is that I live in a place where I can't simply wake up in the morning and say: "ok, let's try today twenty different monitors in the mega-audio-superstore-around-the-corner... so I can say I'm "blind" on this.

¿Budget? +-1.500$ (please, not more...)

My options:

- Genelec 8031A
- JBL LSR4328P

?

PS: In monitor matters, I like the truth and nothing but the truth (uncoloured, flat and accurate; if possible, please).

THANKS FOR READING ME!!

Best regards.

Gosh, I'm tired of writing...

[Chrisc_o]

Do a search. Many good options are discussed here to great detail.

I would seriously reconsider your "need" for digital inputs directly in the monitor. There will have to be a stage D/A conversion taking place somewhere along the chain. I'd trust the interface for that and let the monitors do one thing only and hopefully do it well.

Points I think you should keep in mind:
-Good monitors are all designed to be flat, so the style of music or recording method should be irrelevant
-All monitors depend on their environment so treating your room is super important and can skew your impressions of any monitor, for better or worse
-Very few options out there will be worse than what you are currently using


Good luck.

[John Willett]

I would not say that either of your choices was uncoloured.

I record classical piano with a Nagra VI - I spent ages trying to find the right monitors.

In the end I went for the K+H O110D.

However - now the K+H monitors are being branded as Neumann and they showed the new KH 120 monitor (that will replace the O110) at the IBC last week.

From what I hear it's even better than the O110 in the same volume box. It certainly goes lower.

You are in Europe and would buy in €uros - the KH 120 should have a street price of €1,200 a pair (€600 each), so I think that comes within your budget. This is the price for the KH 120 A (the KH 120 D will be a bit more).

To be honest, I have not used the digital input and only use the analogue - it has to go to analogue sometime and the DAC is either inm the Nagra or the loudspeakers - I think I prefer the Nagra DAC.

The only others that came up to my standard were the Harbeth M20, but they are passive only, and the ATC which are very expensive.

I hope this helps.

[Bechstein]

Hmmm... some misconceptions here...

So:

Sorry, a little bit off topic and then we resume the monitor issue...

1.- Schoeps to Nagra = AD
2.- Nagra to Edirol = DD
3.- Edirol to monitors = DD
4.- Monitors to my ear = DA (this is what you want to avoid, don't you?)

Ok. Let's say that the Nagra's are the best AD/DA converters in the chain. Now what?

(digital audio for dummies is now welcome)

[Bechstein]

I do like the K&H 120's... When will be on sale?

...

I thought that with the Nagra's ADC I'd have a digital signal 'till the speakers output... Ain't it right?

¿ tutt ?

[vernier]

Nearfields are new-wave and unproven.

Get real monitors, especially for an old grand piano.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by vernier

Nearfields are new-wave and unproven.

Get real monitors, especially for an old grand piano.

Tell that to the scores of classical production houses that use them with great success.

[Ben J]

Sorry, but what are "real monitors?"

I'm genuinely curious.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Hmmm... some misconceptions here...

So:

Sorry, a little bit off topic and then we resume the monitor issue...

1.- Schoeps to Nagra = AD
2.- Nagra to Edirol = DD
3.- Edirol to monitors = DD
4.- Monitors to my ear = DA (this is what you want to avoid, don't you?)

Ok. Let's say that the Nagra's are the best AD/DA converters in the chain. Now what?

(digital audio for dummies is now welcome)

The amplifier and loudspeakers are analogue.

So, if you feed a digital signal to the monitors it will go through a DAC and then to the electronic crossover - to the amplifiers and loudspeakers in analogue mode.

Or send an analogue signal from the analogue output of your LB direct to the loudspeaker which goes direct to the electronic crossover as above.

Originally Posted by Bechstein

I do like the K&H 120's... When will be on sale?

December I think, maybe November - I have been told that there may be demo units available in October if you want to talk to your local agent.

Originally Posted by Bechstein

I thought that with the Nagra's ADC I'd have a digital signal 'till the speakers output... Ain't it right?

¿ tutt ?

With the Nagra's ADC it will stay digital until the DAC which will immediately feed the line-out of the recorder (which you then connect to the analogue in of the loudspeakers).


I do a lot of piano recording - more than all other types - and I find my O110D ideal as a location monitor (though I *am* considering swapping to the KH 120).

I do my location monitoring and editing on these, but will check the results on my larger Harbeth M30A monitors (these are a similar size to the O 300 which I would buy if buying today - Harbeth don't do actives anymore except for the large M 40).

[Bechstein]

I know that my weak point is the Edirol so in my mind I was trying to bypass it as much as possible...

Well, I suppose I can't do this:

1.- Schoeps ---> Nagra (ADC) AES/EBU out ---> Audio interface (S/PDIF in) ---> Logic ---> Audio interface S/PDIF out ---> Nagra AES/EBU in ---> (DAC) XLR out to analogue monitors...

...for multitrack recording...

Does this make sense to you? No, do you?

Let me guess, I need more gear...

Back from off-topic:

Monitor options within my budget:

K&H O110 or O110D
K&H 120 or 120D

Tomorrow I'll be calling K&H Spain to see if I catch two demos...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Monitor options within my budget:

K&H O110 or O110D
K&H 120 or 120D

Tomorrow I'll be calling K&H Spain to see if I catch two demos...

Actually it's:
K+H O110 / O110D
Neumann KH120 / KH120D

The KH120 are the replacements for the O110 and come out, as far as I am aware, better and cheaper.

I was told that there should be demo samples next month, so push Magnetron to get a pair in for you to try.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Actually it's:
K+H O110 / O110D
Neumann KH120 / KH120D

Yes, sorry.

I was told that there should be demo samples next month, so push Magnetron to get a pair in for you to try.

I called them this morning and their answer was... "Neumann KH120??? DA WHAT???"

I have to call back next week to talk to the right person...

Thank you, John.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

I called them this morning and their answer was... "Neumann KH120??? DA WHAT???"

I have to call back next week to talk to the right person...

I know the Product Manager for Neumann/K+H.

I sent him an e-mail this morning to say that "someone in Spain" was interested in the KH 120 and suggested he have a word with Magnetron and get a demo pair to them (ie: move them up the list). So, hopefully you will have good news next week.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I know the Product Manager for Neumann/K+H.

I sent him an e-mail this morning to say that "someone in Spain" was interested in the KH 120 and suggested he have a word with Magnetron and get a demo pair to them (ie: move them up the list). So, hopefully you will have good news next week.

First of all, thank you very much, John.

I hope you like good wine, because on in my next trip to London I'm taking you a bottle...

Thank you again!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

First of all, thank you very much, John.

The only name I know in Magnetron is Alfonso Bares - I tried to ring him, but he was out of the office. Anyway, hopefully Neumann should have them sorted by Monday.

Originally Posted by Bechstein

I hope you like good wine, because on in my next trip to London I'm taking you a bottle...

Thank you again!

Cheers - Vino - of course Thanks.

Be nice to meet you, actually, as it seems we record the same sort of stuff - thankfully in different countries.

[James Lehmann]

In the interests of giving yourself some more options to audition I'd recommend a listen to some PMCs as well - outstanding for acoustic music.

[meltemi]

And do not forget the ME-Geithain RL 906, available with analog XLR or digital AES 3 input (RL 906D).

The RL 906 was the best sounding small speaker I've heared so far. In direct comparison especially with classical program material the RL 906 always won hands down over similar sized Genelecs.

A very serious contender for near field monitoring.

ME Geithain | Startseite

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

In the interests of giving yourself some more options to audition I'd recommend a listen to some PMCs as well - outstanding for acoustic music.

I agree - but the DB1 is a bit too small and did not sound so good, especially in the speech band, as the Harbeth M20 and K+H O110 (which I eventually bought). The TB2 and AML2 are better, but are larger and more pricey.


Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by meltemi

The Geithein RL 906 always won hands down over similar sized Genelecs.

I'm not surprised, Geithein are another on my short list:- Neumann/K+H, ATC, Harbeth, PMC & Geithein.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by John Willett

The only name I know in Magnetron is Alfonso Bares - I tried to ring him, but he was out of the office. Anyway, hopefully Neumann should have them sorted by Monday.

Thank you again, John. I'll be calling them on monday morning!

Be nice to meet you, actually, as it seems we record the same sort of stuff - thankfully in different countries.

Since when musicians and audio engineers are rivals??? Don't forget that in this I am an amateur (just read this thread again from the beginning and you'll see...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Since when musicians and audio engineers are rivals??? Don't forget that in this I am an amateur (just read this thread again from the beginning and you'll see...

No rivals - just said in jest / tongue in cheek. Sorry it didn't translate.



Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[Bechstein]

meltemi
And do not forget the ME-Geithain RL 906, available with analog XLR or digital AES 3 input (RL 906D).

The RL 906 was the best sounding small speaker I've heared so far. In direct comparison especially with classical program material the RL 906 always won hands down over similar sized Genelecs.

A very serious contender for near field monitoring.

ME Geithain | Startseite

Hmmm... On the aesthetics of my Nagra... You can't say if it's ugly or beautiful... but it's attractive, I like it! I could try this one next time I travel to Madrid. Though, a little bit too expensive to me (especially after the purchasing of a Nagra LB and a pair of Schoeps). My lady would kill me...

James Lehmann
In the interests of giving yourself some more options to audition I'd recommend a listen to some PMCs as well - outstanding for acoustic music.

Those will be more difficult to try here in Spain, but I take good note. Thank you.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by John Willett

No rivals - just said in jest / tongue in cheek. Sorry it didn't translate.

Just like me! :p

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Hmmm... On the aesthetics of my Nagra... You can't say if it's ugly or beautiful... but it's attractive, I like it! I could try this one next time I travel to Madrid. Though, a little bit too expensive to me (especially after the purchasing of a Nagra LB and a pair of Schoeps). My lady would kill me...

I can understand you very well. €2'520 (incl. German VAT) for a pair of black RL 906 is a lot of money, although they are worth every cent of it. So take your lady with you to listen.
I currently still use AKG 271 MkII headphones for monitoring on location. Speakers were too heavy (physically and financially) so far.
_________________
Nagra VI, DPA 4011-TL stereo set
DPA 4006-TL stereo set planned

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by meltemi

So take your lady with you to listen.

She would be able to buy them!!!

I'll take her!!!

[ISedlacek]

Originally Posted by meltemi

And do not forget the ME-Geithain RL 906, available with analog XLR or digital AES 3 input (RL 906D).

The RL 906 was the best sounding small speaker I've heared so far. In direct comparison especially with classical program material the RL 906 always won hands down over similar sized Genelecs.

A very serious contender for near field monitoring.

Yes, I can just second that. I have never heard nearfield monitors sounding so great, detailed, transparent and 3D as Geithain RL906 (and they sound 3 times bigger than they look). Few people here clearly prefered them over KH 0300 - much more natural sound

[Bechstein]

Hi everyone,

I finally purchased a couple of Geithain RL906's...

I bought them to the company itself and I have to say that the purchasing process was a nightmare... But we're not here to discuss it, or are we? (unless anyone is interested to know for some details...

Well, in any case I have to say that the speakers are wonderful. They offer a very deep and accurate stereo image. The 3D sensation is impressive. Very detailed, I can hear things that I never dreamt that were there, specially quiet sounds.

In combination with a Nagra LB and a pair of Schoeps mics I have the awful truth

BE AWARE OF THE STANDS: I apologize for what I 'm saying now, but... they are a f*****g theft!! I paid 600€ for them and I think I could have built them with my own hands for less than 100€. Anyway, do they perform their function? Yes, I think they do.

I have to give thanks to John Willet for his recomendations although I didn't finally buy the KH120's (if i did I could have earned 1500€, but please don't let me talk about the experiences with Magnetron...).

Regards.

PS: Thank you, meiteml, obviously.

[carllock]

If I were doing classical or jazz, honestly I would use no other speaker than a Lipinski 707 with matching amp.

Killer!

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Hi everyone,

I finally purchased a couple of Geithain RL906's...

Geithain are on my short-list of the good guys - enjoy.

Originally Posted by Bechstein

I have to give thanks to John Willet for his recomendations although I didn't finally buy the KH120's (if i did I could have earned 1500€, but please don't let me talk about the experiences with Magnetron...).

I'm surprised you had problems with Magnetron, all the guys I have met from there have been great.

Maybe you were frustrated because Neumann did not manage to get any demo units of the KH 120 out to dealers until this month (I am still waiting for a pair to try). But I do know they have a good demo studio in Madrid.

If you have any problems with Magnetron in the future, talk to Samuel Leirado Avilés, I have met him a few times and always found him helpful.

[Klotzi]

I own a pair of K&H o110 but would recommand the new Neumann KH120