Improving my alto sax sound

[Jeppe83]

Hi all, first post

What would be the best next investment to improvde the recorded sound of my alto sax?
I currently have focusrite saffire 24 interface, soundcraft M12 mixer and TC C300 compressor in my chain.
The mics I have are Rode NT1000 and AKG C1000s among some even worse recording mics.
My recording room sound quite good altough dry.
I'm thinking about GAP R1 active and/or some budget preamp like GAP 73 or ISA one.

[Chrisc_o]

Welcome aboard.

Please post a clip of your current results. Hard to direct you to your destination without knowing where you're coming from.

[Jeppe83]

Not maybe my best playing but samples anyway
Here is NT1000->M12->C300->Saffire with no other effects at all.
http://artomutanen.net/november.mp3

Here is AKG C1000 in a mix with effects
http://artomutanen.net/sugar.mp3

And NT1000 again but with effects
http://artomutanen.net/sugar2.mp3

Edit: So the problem is the recorded sound is thinner and harsher than my live sound.
This not just my own opinion, I have heard it from others as well.
EQ'ing (too much) just tends to lose detail or make it sound unbalanced.
The mic placement on those clips is pretty much the best I have found to get the detail and punch I want.

[Windshore]

It's hard to comment without knowing the sound you have in your head.

Seems like you like a more traditional sound (rubber mouthpiece / soft reed) but maybe your mics are giving you too much spit and air in the sound? (- those qualities can be kinda cool if you want them too.)

I would suggest you try an AEA r84. (-or other high quality ribbon)

I find the r84 to be very versatile for sax. It's bright enough that you get the energy of your sound but it tends to smooth out some of those artifacts you're getting from close miking. It also tends to (for lack of a better word) compress the sound. - not literally, but it can give the sax a bit more "substance"

[lambchop]

Have you considered using an EV RE20 mic?

[Jeppe83]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Right now the AEA r84 seems a bit expensive for my low end recording needs.

Yes I have considered the RE20 but I've thought it's more of a live than recording mic. Would you consider it can't be beat for the price just recording?

[uncle duncan]

The biggest improvement you could make to your sax sound would be to not play sharp...

The sax sound in the last clip (Sugar) with the NT1000 sounded fine to me, although maybe a little up front in the mix. Have you tried messing with mic placement? I usually put the mic halfway between the bell and the mouthpiece, at least a foot or so away from the instrument and a little off to the side. I think, the closer you get, the more presence you'll be capturing. You also might want to try tracking without a compressor. The compressor could be flattening out the sound, which might be why it sounds different than your live sound.

An interesting mic for horns is the ADK S7-b, which is a LDC voiced with a lot of low end. They were closing them out at Musician's Friend a while back for $199. I think they list for $499. Other cheap mics considered neutral are the mxl 2003a, the mxl V67g (wich benefits from the electronics mod to calm the high end) the ADK A-6, and various KEL mics. KEL has a nice website with sound samples of each mic, and also frequency response graphs for each mic, so you can correlate what you're hearing with how the frequency response graphs look. Then you can find frequency response graphs for the mics you already own, to make sure your new mic isn't going to sound similar to the ones you already have.

The last thing you need is another preamp. The sound begins at the mic. All a preamp is doing is putting the icing on the cake - it's not going to change the recipe of the cake, which is what you need to do.

[Jeppe83]

Thanks for the detailed response.

I re-visited the mic placement now. I guess I have been setting the mic too closely just because I tend to set it with me playing the sax headphones on. That way I get the interaction between the real sound and the delayed mic sound so what I hear is not the real thing.
The sound did get better by backing down the mic and setting it a bit higher. I still have a problem with how the NT1000 reproduces the highs though.
I got a chance to try a GAP R1 active and it did resolve the problem with the highs but created new ones with metal sounding high mids and general "cardboardiness".
Here is a clip for comparison:
http://artomutanen.net/november27.mp3

It was really surprising how different the sound is. Of course there is difference in playing and mic placement as well but still.
A darker sounding LDC might just be the key. Thanks for the tip for the ADK s7b. They may even be occasionally available here at a "low end" price.

It's true I like the sound without compression but I seem to need it to prevent clipping. There was way too much of it on some of the clips but I couldn't do without it either. I could of course compress after the fact but the benefits are quite limited.

[loujudson]

Borrow a 421 and give it a try. YOu need the mellowness, and 421 delivers. Just one more possibility!
L

[amomentsloss]

I know a lot of people that swear by a ribbon mic for brass. There are some low end options (m joly mod a nady rsm4 or rsm5). I've actually been considering buying the oktava ribbon from him directly, already modded as well - That is a little more $$ though...

[uncle duncan]

Originally Posted by Jeppe83

....It's true I like the sound without compression but I seem to need it to prevent clipping....

The way you prevent clipping is by turning down the output of your mic pre. If you're recording at 24 bits, there's no reason to dial in hot levels. In fact, hot levels will distort your A/D conversion the closer you get to 0db. The day I quit tracking with cheap compressors was the day my tracks started sounding really good. (Coincidentally, that was also when I started working at 24 bits instead of 16 bits.) In the mix, you can automate the volume, or use that new Waves plugin that does the volume automation for you. Then if you want to change the sound of your sax from natural to artificially squashed, you can add your compressor.

[soulata]

Originally Posted by Jeppe83

What would be the best next investment to improvde the recorded sound of my alto sax?

1st would be getting it right from the source (I didn't listen to the clips, so I'm not dissing your playing in any way). This alone makes the biggest difference.

I usually record through RE20 and any preamp that's there. There is a difference, but its not night and day. Any condenser mic does it for me just as well as RE20 if it happens to be so.

I've recorded through Neumanns, At4050, 4040, 4033, Rode NT1, Rode K2...

k

p.s.: as some said, the distance from the mic is important, too, don't point it to the bell all the way, The spot for me is somewhere around 30cm from the sax pointing to the spot just a bit above the bell.

p.p.s.: once again - don't rely on mic/pre to change YOUR sound.

[wirenut]

There is no magic combination of mics and preamps or settings for any particular instrument. However there is one thing I have learned over the years and that is to experiment, experiment, experiment and experiment with positions and mic combinations. Document your results and even take pictures. It’s not like you’re eating up 2” tape or something. IT”S FREE” One inch of mic placement can create a whole new dimension in the results good or bad and you will learn in time what combination makes you and your instrument sound the best for tracking.

This is the recipe that I usually start with when tracking a sax player. (The key word here is “start”) I blend one condenser mic and one dynamic mic together all the time. Typically an AKG414 or a RODE NT2 condenser and an MD421 or an RE20. They are placed right next to each other but not touching so there is no phase issues. I start by positioning them between the mouthpiece and the bell about 12 to 16 inches in front of the instrument, aiming at the lower keys but not the bell. Experiment with mic combinations and locations. The actual room can also have a major effect in the mic combo and placement.

I rarely compress sax on the way in but I have. Make sure you are tracking in 24bit and don’t let the input signal go above -8db.

You can take all of our replies here including mine with a grain of salt because these responses are what worked for our situations (rooms, mics, etc….) and not yours.

Now get busy and don’t come for air until you can say.”WOW I FOUND IT” this sax sounds sweet.

Good luck and have fun!

Wirenut

[soulata]

Originally Posted by wirenut

[SIZE=3][FONT=Calibri]This is the recipe that I usually start with when tracking a sax player. (The key word here is “start”) I blend one condenser mic and one dynamic mic together all the time.

I got the best sound ever (for me, totally subjective of course) using two Neumann 47s in a great room using Selmer Mark VI tenor, it would only work for that mix though...

Apart from that, AT4050 in a decent room did 98% of the magic the Neumanns did. I don't usually go for two mics but I'm sure it's a possibility.

k

[area51recording]

I've been using a Cascade Fathead on my tenor alto and trumpet lately. I like it a LOT and it's not much of a bite in the $$$ dept.

[jimthepisces]

+1 MD421. Like everyone's been saying, resist the temptation to close mic the bell of your sax. When you close mic, the lower notes will be much louder than the higher ones, so you would have to use a compressor to smooth it out. Try 12 to 16 inches back.

Also, if you're tracking it through your Soundcraft M12, why not engage the HPF? It will cut below 100hz which won't affect the lowest note of your sax (alto @ 135 Hz, tenor @ 100 Hz)

[Musiclab]

to the OP before you buy anything else you need a mic, you don't have one.
Without the right mic it'd pretty easy for your horn to sound like a kazoo. What you're looking for is a mic that's a little scooped in the mids, like an AKG 414 TLII. You can find them fairly inexpensive used these days. It's not a super popular mic but it really does work well on an alto. C12 style mics if they're not overly bright will also work well, since they are a bit scooped in the mids with a pretty good bottom and top.

[PlugHead]

Lots of good advice here. I haven't actually listened to your clips, but can recommend a couple of things:

1) mic placement - even with a god-awful mic, you should experiment with placement. My best results have come from micing 18" or more away, placed centre (between mouthpiece and bell) angling the mic down towards the bell.

2) if the horn is 'edgy' sounding, consider finding a mellow mic, such as a ribbon - even cheap ones can work well, the Cascade Fatheads or Shinybox are better, and reasonably priced. Also a Beyer M160 or the cheaper M260 are great sax mics too.

3) dynamic mics, and even darker condenser mics can work well on sax: Senn 441 or even a 421 can work well, as can mellow condensers - the AKG C1000 has got the be the WORST possible mic for sax - you could only do better with virtually ANYTHING (AFAIC)...

I hope this helps,

[GZsound]

I spent years and years trying to get the best sax sound out of both my alto and tenor saxes.

I tried dynamics, LD condensers, small condensers and ribbon mics.

I have used a Beyer M260 live since 1974 but it didn't work well in the studio.

Believe it or not, the best sax sound I got in the studio was with a CAD GXL 2400 which is a sub $100 LD mic.

It sounded better than my RE20, AT4047, 4050, M179, MK012, AT ATM10a..etc. on both alto and tenor.

But mic placement is really...really important.

1966 MK VI Selmer alto
1949 Super Balanced Action Selmer Tenor

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by GZsound

I spent years and years trying to get the best sax sound out of both my alto and tenor saxes.

I tried dynamics, LD condensers, small condensers and ribbon mics.

I have used a Beyer M260 live since 1974 but it didn't work well in the studio.

Believe it or not, the best sax sound I got in the studio was with a CAD GXL 2400 which is a sub $100 LD mic.

It sounded better than my RE20, AT4047, 4050, M179, MK012, AT ATM10a..etc. on both alto and tenor.

But mic placement is really...really important.

1966 MK VI Selmer alto
1949 Super Balanced Action Selmer Tenor

Mic placement is really important, but honestly I wouldn't use ANY of those mics on a horn

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by Musiclab

Mic placement is really important, but honestly I wouldn't use ANY of those mics on a horn

Well..what can I say? I used what I had. I wonder if you actually have even tried any of those mics on sax?

The Beyer M260 was a fantastic mic for live use for me for over 30 years.

[Accurate]

I actually just did a session with my trio last weekend where we shot out some mics on alto. We ended up going with a Sennheiser 441 on almost every track, and a Nevaton MC49 on a few where a brighter sound was needed. The 441 has been a favorite of mine for a while, it has a nice blend of smoothness and detail that works really well for sax. We also tried a pair of Beyer M260DX with the Sank RCA 77 mod as well and we just found them to be too dark and the 441 gave us exactly what we wanted without EQ. I've also used the RE20 and RE27 from time to time and found both to be more nasally and lacking body on sax compared to the 441.

If anyone's interested, I can post the tracks in a few days when they're mixed.

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by Accurate

I actually just did a session with my trio last weekend where we shot out some mics on alto. We ended up going with a Sennheiser 441 on almost every track, and a Nevaton MC49 on a few where a brighter sound was needed. The 441 has been a favorite of mine for a while, it has a nice blend of smoothness and detail that works really well for sax. We also tried a pair of Beyer M260DX with the Sank RCA 77 mod as well and we just found them to be too dark and the 441 gave us exactly what we wanted without EQ. I've also used the RE20 and RE27 from time to time and found both to be more nasally and lacking body on sax compared to the 441.

If anyone's interested, I can post the tracks in a few days when they're mixed.

Yeah, I had my M260 modified by Mr. Sank.

I ended up sending it to Beyer to be rebuilt. Too dark indeed (among other problems).