Favorite Blumlein pair?

[kevk]

Greetings.

I've just started tracking using a Blumlein pair, and really like it. I'm using a pair of AKG 414 (one XLS and one XLII). I was wondering what others might like/prefer for Blumlein pairs?

TIA,
-kk

[gregor z]

2x Beyer M130 with sabrasom suspension mount....... i also use a pair 414s sometimes , but the truth is that since i got the m130s they are in use all the time.....on everything and i prefer them over 414s in 90% of situations.

[Jim vanBergen]

Coles 4038s, and AEA R88.

[picksail]

2x AEA R84

[Jason Poulin]

I second a pair of AEAR84's


My fav of the ribbon family!


Jason

[picksail]

If you have a nice room, Blumlein works wonderfully as a background vox reverb. I think the above photo was utilized for such a purpose. Perhaps 18-22' from the vocalists in addition to close micing, of course.

[rob99]

Sanken CU-41

for what application are you appling it?

[djui5]

Originally Posted by picksail

2x AEA R84

Pretty


A pair of M149's does not suck either.

[leddy]

I recently sold my Beyer M130's. I loved using one for M/S, but found myself not using M/S much. I did not really like them as much in Blumlein as other set ups.

I do want a Blumlein option. I was hoping I could get some advice between something like the Royer SF12 or going with a condenser. A pair of Sennheiser MKH30's perhaps, but that would be a lot more than an SF12.

I bought a cheap-o Cascade X15 to see what it sounded like. I have a clip attached. I find it a bit trashy in the midrange. This sample is EQ'd, so I might try to post one without - but you can still hear it. I'd like less of that in favor of something a little more smooth and extended.

Does that sound like a Royer or more towards a condenser? I have not used a Royer yet.

The clip is the X15 in front of a piano trio. The only other mic is a small condenser under the bridge of the bass, but it's pretty well isolated and low in the mix.

Thanks.

[fifthcircle]

Wow... Another old thread

For me blumlein has usually been done with a Royer SF-24, AEA R88, or one of my stereo condensers- AKG 422/426 or Schoeps CMTS301

--Ben

[leddy]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Wow... Another old thread

For me blumlein has usually been done with a Royer SF-24, AEA R88, or one of my stereo condensers- AKG 422/426 or Schoeps CMTS301

--Ben

It seemed prudent to continue a thread rther than start a new one.

Do you find your Royer as useful as the AKG or Schoeps?

[fifthcircle]

They all have their uses. Blumlein for all it does good, also can be a big problem. The rear lobes need to be treated with care. The other thing is that ribbon mics often don't have the "reach" that condensers have. If I'm recording a chorus, I'll reach for the ribbons. If I'm recording small chamber groups, I may reach for the ribbons unless the room doesn't agree with it. Then I go for the 426 where I have a 9 position pattern control for each capsule. I can go one or two clicks in towards hypercardiod and get the imaging, but avoid the room problems.

--Ben

[leddy]

Anyone see these:

Oktava MK012 Figure-8 head

I'm wondering if that could even work with the capsules so far apart.

[boojum]

How do the Schoeps Mk8's work in a Blumlein pair? I have one Mk8 for MS and was thinking of getting another and doing Blumlein. Anyone with experience with this setup??

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by boojum

How do the Schoeps Mk8's work in a Blumlein pair? I have one Mk8 for MS and was thinking of getting another and doing Blumlein.

They should do fine - they are a single diaphragm fig-8 and I prefer a real single-diaphragm fig-8 over a dual-diaphragm one that makes the 8 by using back-to-back cardioids.

The construction of the MK8 means that the rear lobe is slightly different at the higher frequencies - but this does not matter at all with classic Blumlein. If you already have one MK8 this is the most cost-effective way to go for you.

[madriaan]

Originally Posted by fifthcircle

Wow... Another old thread

I prefer vintage threads over new topics.

M.

[Reptil]

Beyerdynamic MC740 at some distance.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by leddy

Anyone see these:

Oktava MK012 Figure-8 head

I'm wondering if that could even work with the capsules so far apart.

IMO, if it worked (and it might not), this wouldn't be cost effective. The price of the "8" little amp does not include the capsules. Oktava capsules are not exactly consistent. Nor their electronics, which would be in that "8" unit. Not only would you need really symetrical patterns, you would need perfectly matched levels within that "8" unit. When you add the cost of the "8", add two questionable capsules, how much have you spent?

Better to me would be to buy:
1. Sennheiser MKH30
or
2. AKG C414B/ULS
or
3. Some other less expensive dual diaphragm

[tnjazz]

Originally Posted by Reptil

Beyerdynamic MC740 at some distance.

thumbsup

To date, still my favorite blumlein pair

[mr.gefell]

Big Fan of the Schoeps cmts 501 (thousands of recordings made with this awesome stereo mic all over the world ) and the pearl ELM series

[leddy]

Originally Posted by JEGG

IMO, if it worked (and it might not), this wouldn't be cost effective. The price of the "8" little amp does not include the capsules. Oktava capsules are not exactly consistent. Nor their electronics, which would be in that "8" unit. Not only would you need really symetrical patterns, you would need perfectly matched levels within that "8" unit. When you add the cost of the "8", add two questionable capsules, how much have you spent?

Better to me would be to buy:
1. Sennheiser MKH30
or
2. AKG C414B/ULS
or
3. Some other less expensive dual diaphragm

The way I read it from seeing other Oktava dealer websites, is that the $400 unit includes capsules. The ones in the picture are clearly not the usual MC012 capsules, those appear built in to the unit. It seems there is a separate adapter if you already own capsules, but it does not list how much it costs. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

Go here: Oktava -- Shop
and look at the difference between photo one and two.

The website is not clear - but after calling some of these dealers, I'm finding out that they can't really get them yet anyway. So details are still sketchy I guess.

I'd love to try the MKH30's.

[JEGG]

Originally Posted by leddy

The website is not clear - but after calling some of these dealers, I'm finding out that they can't really get them yet anyway. So details are still sketchy I guess.

I'd love to try the MKH30's.

I've seen the body only for order in the US for $400. The body with two capsules is about $600.

I was interested in this some time ago, but Octava dealers I contacted (now some time ago) just did a lot of "double talk". The ones, anyway, that actually answer the phone or return calls.

The Euro site linked lists the "body" for 80 Euros. I doubt if it could be had for that price-but who knows? At the price it would be worth trying.

Especially if you have good and consistent cardioid capsules, which are generally the least best of the three (others being omni and hypercardioid).

If you try it please let us know your experience. An MKH30 at twice the price (2X600) seems like a better and safer deal to me. The MKH30 comes with a good shockmount and a proximity switch. And, of course, it is dead quiet, has a perfectly flat response, if that's what you're looking for.

Let us know what happens.

[leddy]

Originally Posted by JEGG

An MKH30 at twice the price (2X600) seems like a better and safer deal to me. The MKH30 comes with a good shockmount and a proximity switch. And, of course, it is dead quiet, has a perfectly flat response, if that's what you're looking for.

Thanks, I think the MKH30 is probably what I am looking for. I do like the sound of Oktavas. Not for everything, but they are useful mics.

[summer_room]

Here's something to listen to:
Beethoven String quartet, op. 74

Recorded in blumlein with 1 Neumann USM69i and 1 Royer SF12 in a medium hall. Placed close together about 10 feet up, 8 feet out

Neumann pre RME Micstacy, Royer pre AEA TRP

Royer has 4 db high shelf eq at 5 kHz added

Enjoy

[mljung]

Originally Posted by summer_room

Here's something to listen to:
Beethoven String quartet, op. 74

Recorded in blumlein with 1 Neumann USM69i and 1 Royer SF12 in a medium hall. Placed close together about 10 feet up, 8 feet out

Neumann pre RME Micstacy, Royer pre AEA TRP

Royer has 4 db high shelf eq at 5 kHz added

Enjoy

I liked the sound of the Royer much better than the Neumann [which I found nasal, "boxy" and "pinchy" sounding]. But even though the Royer sounded good it was all too wide for my taste - a big hole in the middle!
But that's Blumlein of course...!

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by mljung

But even though the Royer sounded good it was all too wide for my taste - a big hole in the middle!
But that's Blumlein of course...!

Well that's the exact opposite of the theory and my experiences. Its simply impossible to get a hole in the middle with Blumlein, that's one of the main reasons for using it. One gets a coherent, solid, central image, with the stability of mono, but with a stereo image. The best of both worlds.

[mljung]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Well that's the exact opposite of the theory and my experiences. Its simply impossible to get a hole in the middle with Blumlein, that's one of the main reasons for using it. One gets a coherent, solid, central image, with the stability of mono, but with a stereo image. The best of both worlds.

Ups sorry - I didn't mean that Blumlein is like this in every case, and I can see that it could be read this way. So I'll try to explain what I mean a little better:

I was referring to the recording - using the Blumlein pair as close to the quartet, as in the above recording sample, there is definitely a hole in the middle [or exatterated L/R information if you will].
So to balance it better the Blumlein pair had to be moved farther away from the ensemble and that would result in a maybe to distant recording. Because of Blumleins fixed array there's not much to be done about that [unless you want to narrow the stereo image electronically]. That was what I meant when I said "...but that's Blumlein" However, I do agree that Blumlein, used optimally, gives you a wonderful broad and solid stereo-image.

[sonicdefault]

Originally Posted by mljung

Ups sorry - I didn't mean that Blumlein is like this in every case, and I can see that it could be read this way. So I'll try to explain what I mean a little better:

I was referring to the recording - using the Blumlein pair as close to the quartet, as in the above recording sample, there is definitely a hole in the middle [or exatterated L/R information if you will].
So to balance it better the Blumlein pair had to be moved farther away from the ensemble and that would result in a maybe to distant recording. Because of Blumleins fixed array there's not much to be done about that [unless you want to narrow the stereo image electronically]. That was what I meant when I said "...but that's Blumlein" However, I do agree that Blumlein, used optimally, gives you a wonderful broad and solid stereo-image.

Perhaps both of you are correct. More than likely, your situation is that the "hole" you describe is a result of instruments in the middle being slightly off axis, rather than the actual image itself having a hole. Or in other words, there was a hole, but it was the content of the image, not the image itself.

And of course, moving the array farther back as you did, was exactly what was needed.




-SD

[BlueSprocket]

An old SM-2 rocks, I also quite like the C24. When I have neither of those at my disposal 414s (preferably with CK12s) make a fine substitute. Modded U67s are also really fun.

[Dr Bob]

I like options--especially when going to new venues and of course Blumlein can be glorious in the right setting. I usually carry an SF-24 which, if the room is great is used in Blumlein and if not in M-S for appropriate sources--voices, choirs, brass quintets all the usual ribbon suspects.

However, I also carry a pair of Schoeps CMC5/Mk-6's with a Schoeps stereo bracket. Mk-6 is the omni, card, fig-8 switchable capsule; it's a single membrane mic that uses a system of mechanical shutters to achieve the various patterns. In fig-8 it is very close in sound to the Mk-8 so it works very well indeed in Blumlein if the room works and if you want that little extra crispness the sdc's give you.

The advantage to this set up is that you also have just about every other coincident and near coincident set up you could ever want without a lot to carry around. This flexibility has saved the day many times. Recently I showed up to record what was billed as a "Festival of English Song" only to find out that the audience was seated at small tables being served tea and scones complete with clinking spoons and cups. While I normally love the Royer on sopranos those rear-lobes and clinking cups would not play nice together so out came the Schoeps in DIN and presto!