Video Basics...want to get my feet wet!

[SynthLine09]

I have been researching up on video cameras and audio for video for about a month or so now, and am wanting to get a nice video recorder so I can record student recitals (I currently record audio at many at my school) along with do some creative projects with original compositions on my own time.

I do have a number of questions though...


First of all, I know that in order to record audio with video, it needs to be recorded at 48KHz. Can somebody give me a very simple explanation as to why this is, as opposed to recording at 44.1? I'm not quite sure I fully grasp the concept.


Also...I'm looking at consumer HD cameras or a nice DSLR or digital camera...is there anything for under $1,000 that has a usable audio input? For the price of $1,000, what would be the easiest/smartest way to record the audio with the video. Should i run my gear straight into a camera, or should I record them as separate feeds and sync them up in a video sequencer later?


I realize this is all pretty basic stuff, but I'm hoping a few answers can start to at least narrow down some options for me, and I can research further on my own.

Thanks in advance

[MKing]

Firstly, the sample rate must match the video stream or the audio will become out of sync with the video.
Big no on the DSLR with a video recording feature, they are very nice, but all currently have a 10 minute clip capture length limit, and most dont have a live video output feature either, so wouldn't work so well for a live performance.
You could run the video from a camera and audio from a monitor mixer into a set top dvd recorder. This wouldnt be best but would be the easiest, cons: no audio editing, no video editing. you could use a program called mpeg streamclip to cut up the recorded dvd and then master a custom dvd.
Best would be to record separately and add mixdown audio to a video timeline then edit video, export and master a DVD.

[Petrus]

The standard sample rate for video is 48KHz. Of course it is possible to use a separate recorder at any sample rate if you convert the rate to 48KHz before dropping it to the video editor timeline. Some editors can adjust the sample rate automatically.

By far the easiest way is to record to camera; no sync issues later (for hour long takes there will be slight drift no matter how good equipment you use, and cheap cameras can not be synced to recorders). The best choice would be a camera with line-in with XLR connectors, but you can not find those for under $1000 new. Used maybe, at least non-HD.

If you can find a HD camera with mic-in plug and MANUAL AUDIO LEVEL setting, you can feed the signal from a mixer. A good mixer has vastly better metering and limiter.

Camera preamps and ADCs are not as good as separate recorders, but they are perfectly usable.

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Petrus

By far the easiest way is to record to camera; no sync issues later (for hour long takes there will be slight drift no matter how good equipment you use, and cheap cameras can not be synced to recorders).

I have used a Lynx Aurora 8 and various Sony cam's (FX1- PMWEX1/EX1R/EX3) and I only get a couple of minutes of recording before I drift out of sync. This has forced me to only use relatively short clips even though if I would want to use just one angle for say a 15minutes piece.

The time and effort to get things synced manually in the timeline is killing me. Did try Pluraleyes (automatically sync various clips by checking the audio) but it has not worked out well for me and I still had to adjust manually in the end.

The options I see now are a) feed the XLR inputs of one camera with a live mix or b) get cam's with clock input and use a master.

Option a is not something I'm very interested in since I want to decide on the mix in post and since I have nice preamps and AD's. I seldom have time to do a proper mix on location and there's still the possibility that the cameras drift themselfs even when using the same type of cam.

Option b would be best but obviously gets expensive since few cam's below €10000 have clock input and then cables need to be drawn across the hall from the master clock to the cam's.

Any suggestions for lengthy music concerts?

/Peter

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Audiop

I have used a Lynx Aurora 8 and various Sony cam's (FX1- PMWEX1/EX1R/EX3) and I only get a couple of minutes of recording before I drift out of sync. This has forced me to only use relatively short clips even though if I would want to use just one angle for say a 15minutes piece.

The time and effort to get things synced manually in the timeline is killing me. Did try Pluraleyes (automatically sync various clips by checking the audio) but it has not worked out well for me and I still had to adjust manually in the end.

The options I see now are a) feed the XLR inputs of one camera with a live mix or b) get cam's with clock input and use a master.

Option a is not something I'm very interested in since I want to decide on the mix in post and since I have nice preamps and AD's. I seldom have time to do a proper mix on location and there's still the possibility that the cameras drift themselfs even when using the same type of cam.

Option b would be best but obviously gets expensive since few cam's below €10000 have clock input and then cables need to be drawn across the hall from the master clock to the cam's.

Any suggestions for lengthy music concerts?

/Peter

WE do hour to hour and a half long concerts with a Sony FX1 and a Fostex FR2LE and don't have a drift problem (maybe a couple of frames at the end). Something maybe wrong in your setup. Internal clocks that are not accurate??? Recording at something other than 29.97 rate?? Digital should not drift that much.

[audibell]

I have had very useful results with DSLRs, Panasonic Lumix FZ50s - I have tried Plural Eyes to synch up multiple clips, 2 or 3 cameras and occasionally I have to slip a clip/event fore and aft 100milliSecs - I'll probably continue with it. My customers are happy with DSLR results and I'm sore-eyed. We have used Panasonic AG DVC 200 as well but the DSLR packages are a more popular sell and way easier to set up.

For those who admit to using Zoom H4s as dual system audio reference tracks, you will be familiar with the persistent date 15SEP2005. The tiny utility below permits changing the dates and times to something more useful for record-keeping. With 100 or more files per project, Adobe Bridge is your friend and Vegas is a fast learner. We tried Premier, hence Bridge, but Vegas and Architect get the work out.

FileDate Changer v1.1 - Change the created/modified time of files

Get a couple of cameras and get your hands wet - have fun - you will need a helper.
rgds
WalterT

[SynthLine09]

Thanks a ton for the advice so far everyone, very helpful.

So its looking like I'm going to be recording the audio stream and video stream separately, because I would like to edit (especially the audio) after the gigs.

I'm also looking into final cut express to start off with until I can afford Final cut pro (might get the academic version), but are there any other suggestions for video software for mac to get started with? I have pretty much mastered the junk that is imovie

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by SynthLine09

Thanks a ton for the advice so far everyone, very helpful.

So its looking like I'm going to be recording the audio stream and video stream separately, because I would like to edit (especially the audio) after the gigs.

I'm also looking into final cut express to start off with until I can afford Final cut pro (might get the academic version), but are there any other suggestions for video software for mac to get started with? I have pretty much mastered the junk that is imovie

If you have the money FCP Studio academic version would be the way to go. FCP Express is good but....why pay for something twice?

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

If you have the money FCP Studio academic version would be the way to go. FCP Express is good but....why pay for something twice?

Good point...I was just under the impression that you could upgrade to FCP at any time, but maybe not with the academic version. FCP is only $300 at my campus bookstore for the academic version...quite a steal

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by SynthLine09

Good point...I was just under the impression that you could upgrade to FCP at any time, but maybe not with the academic version. FCP is only $300 at my campus bookstore for the academic version...quite a steal

It is my understanding that academic versions are NEVER updateable for the simple reason they are for someone to use for 4 or less years and then go into the real world and spend some serious coin to get the real version.

At least that is what I have been told. Go for FCP Studio would be my suggestion.

[Ozpeter]

Big no on the DSLR with a video recording feature, they are very nice, but all currently have a 10 minute clip capture length limit, and most dont have a live video output feature either, so wouldn't work so well for a live performance.

I don't know where you got the "10 minute clip capture length limit" idea from - for instance, unless purchased in the EU the Panasonic GH1 will record for as long as you like - nor do I see why live performance requires live video output.


Here I've used the GH1 on its own, unattended, for a couple of classical recital recordings, with audio recorded to an Edirol R-44. Syncing the audio to video manually afterwards is no major task and drift is minimal. When you video in 1080i for standard DVD release, you've got a lot of scope in post production to crop from the original down to DVD frame dimensions, thus permitting one camera to look like several (by cutting from one cropped view to a different crop) or providing totally steady zooms by keyframing a variable crop. Using those kinds of techniques I've been able to even disguise the removal of a repeat from a performance.

I think we've discussed much of this very recently anyway...

Edit - yup, Questions for those doing video on classical shows

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by Ozpeter

Edit - yup, Questions for those doing video on classical shows

thanks for the link!

[Lazerface]

If you can, try sending a live mix from your recorder or mixer to the video camera, just for use as a sync track. You can then do your final mix at home and then replace that audio in post production. I've had success doing that method, and i've had no sync issues whatsoever.

As for cameras, Canon, Sony, JVC, and Panasonic have some great prosumer options, especially JVC. However, you may want to bump your budget for a camera up to $2000 to really open up options. All non-HDSLR Canons still record to HDV tape, JVC is almost all SD card based, and panasonic and sony have multiple options.

If you're really broke, get a consumer HD camcorder with a external minijack input, and then you can get a camcorder xlr adaptor/mixer for it. You can plug in one or 2 XLR inputs and it outputs it onto a 1/8" minijack that nicely connects to almost any consumer camera out there.

Hope this Helps!

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

WE do hour to hour and a half long concerts with a Sony FX1 and a Fostex FR2LE and don't have a drift problem (maybe a couple of frames at the end). Something maybe wrong in your setup. Internal clocks that are not accurate??? Recording at something other than 29.97 rate?? Digital should not drift that much.

There's really not much to set up as such. I record at 96kS/s with the Lynx and the cam's run at 25p.

I am really surprised as well I have so much drift and it's a pain.

The cost of going synced with word clock is huge and give me no other extra value so I really would like to solve this somehow. Maybe try another AD for the external AD or take a look at other cam's.


/Peter

[Audiop]

Originally Posted by SynthLine09

Good point...I was just under the impression that you could upgrade to FCP at any time, but maybe not with the academic version. FCP is only $300 at my campus bookstore for the academic version...quite a steal

Apple has no upgrades from FCE to FCP AFAIK.

My advice would also be to save up for the pro package FCS. I don't think you can buy FCP alone.

I did a project with HDV some time ago and bought FCE for that and soon after I did a project with full HD and bought FCS. Needless to say I regret I didn't go with FCS from start.

FCS handles full HD and 50/60fps which FCE don't. You also get the nice Prores intermediate codecs with FCS.

You can still use FCE for HD material if you use something like MPEG-Streamclip downscaling before going in to FCE. You also need to conform 50/60fps footage with some external software before importing material for "true" slow motion.


/Peter

[SynthLine09]

Originally Posted by Audiop

Apple has no upgrades from FCE to FCP AFAIK.

My advice would also be to save up for the pro package FCS. I don't think you can buy FCP alone.

I did a project with HDV some time ago and bought FCE for that and soon after I did a project with full HD and bought FCS. Needless to say I regret I didn't go with FCS from start.

FCS handles full HD and 50/60fps which FCE don't. You also get the nice Prores intermediate codecs with FCS.

You can still use FCE for HD material if you use something like MPEG-Streamclip downscaling before going in to FCE. You also need to conform 50/60fps footage with some external software before importing material for "true" slow motion.


/Peter

No idea what you're saying technically, but It sounds like I need to save up for final cut studio. too many darn acroynms...lol


Leaning towards something like a Canon Vixia HF100 right now

[Audiop]

:-)

Basically FCE can take you pretty far but there are restrictions.. for example when it comes to footage with full HD resolution (1920x1080) and frame rates higher than standard PAL (25fps) and NTSC (30fps).

If you want to work with footage of 50fps or 60fps you need FCP/FCS (Final Cut Pro/Final Cut Studio).

Also if you want to play with high quality slow motion (where you shoot in 50fps or 60fps and slow down to 24/25/30fps) I'm not aware of a simple solution for FCE but with the FCS package you get several powerful programs that allows you to work on a professional level with most material.

You can use free software and convert 1920x1080 to 1280x720 which FCE can handle though.

Intermediate codecs lets you unpack hard compressed files such as MPEG into a high quality more editable format. There is one version called AIC that comes with FCE which is ok but in FCP/FCS you get the one that is called Prores which is higher quality.

I should add that it is possible to convert 50/60fps footage to an image sequence with Quicktime Pro and then import this sequence to a new film but I think you loose quality doing that (not sure) and it takes a little more time than just conforming in Cinema Tools which comes with the FCS package.

Just ask if you need help and more info.


/Peter

[SynthLine09]

Thank you for clearing a few of those things up for me!

I have a feeling I will be learning a lot in this venture

[David Spearritt]

Here's what you can do with a very good but cheap camera (Pana SD700) and separate carefully prepared audio recording. Had no synch probs at all over 12 mins. Synched the audio on the camera with the separate audio track once at the start. All edited with Edius Neo, about $200 worth, fantastic program. The export settings are crucial to not mangling the quality in YouTube.
YouTube - Jayson Gillham: Chopin Scherzo Nr 4 in E Major

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by Audiop

There's really not much to set up as such. I record at 96kS/s with the Lynx and the cam's run at 25p.

I am really surprised as well I have so much drift and it's a pain.

The cost of going synced with word clock is huge and give me no other extra value so I really would like to solve this somehow. Maybe try another AD for the external AD or take a look at other cam's.


/Peter

What system gets used in your country??? PAL or SECAM? We use NTSC here in the states.

[Audiop]

Sweden=PAL.

I'll take a look at SD 788T which I think have more sample rate settings.

I'm considering a purchase of a EX1R but you need to stretch to EX3 to get clock input and the 788T have been triggering my interest as a pure audiorecorder anyway.



/Peter

[Denus]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

Here's what you can do with a very good but cheap camera (Pana SD700) and separate carefully prepared audio recording. Had no synch probs at all over 12 mins. Synched the audio on the camera with the separate audio track once at the start. All edited with Edius Neo, about $200 worth, fantastic program. The export settings are crucial to not mangling the quality in YouTube.
YouTube - Jayson Gillham: Chopin Scherzo Nr 4 in E Major

So.... just to clarify, you took a pre-recorded audio and sync'd it to video in post? If so, did the pianist play along to the audio recording of himself?

That's the scenario I'm trying to accomplish... still researching though. Sorry for the hijack.

[David Spearritt]

No. The HQ audio was recorded simultaneously but on a separate dedicated audio recorder to the camera audio, which was also recorded. In post, align the HQ audio with the camera audio, then print without the camera audio.

[SynthLine09]

So I'm fairly sure I'll be getting a Canon Vixia HF100, which records in AVCHD. I'm told using this format with Final Cut is a poor idea because logic will have to convert the file into a very large format type. Can anyone clarify why this is?

Premiere pro has been suggested to me and I'm trying out the demo right now

[Audiop]

I don't know if FCE supports AVCHD but FCP does.

Audio in AVCHD is either PCM or Dolby AC3, neither should present you with any problems.

If you plan to use FCE and it does not support AVCHD you can decompress the H.264 encoded stream to some intermediate format as AIC or Prores.

Logic is not involved with this.


/Peter

[NorseHorse]

FCP will "decompress" AVCHD on about a 10:1 ratio to an intermediate format. Premiere CS4 does not. Premiere CS5 is apparently even better at working with AVCHD. Regardless of what format you shoot in, any students considering video editing should really look at the Adobe Creative Suite Packages as you get better software and more software for a similar price.

Cheers.

[fifthcircle]

Working with native AVCHD files in Premiere CS5 (on a PC) with great success. My computer is a beast (i7 980x chip, 12GB ram, super fast SATA III drives, etc...), but there have been no issues working on these files in realtime. Can't speak to CS4, but CS5 is a great program- easy to use, very powerful feature set, full 64 bit processing throughout (don't believe it will even install on a 32 bit OS).

--Ben

[jnorman]

unless you have a killer machine with high end graphics card, and top end software, i would recommend that you not buy a camera that shoots AVCHD. i tried that, and wasted WAY too many hours trying to solve all the attendent problems.

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by jnorman

unless you have a killer machine with high end graphics card, and top end software, i would recommend that you not buy a camera that shoots AVCHD. i tried that, and wasted WAY too many hours trying to solve all the attendent problems.

Some of the problems maybe due to asking the conversion to occur during editing instead of during printing/rendering. If you shoot 1080p AVCHD and then import that into a 720i timeline in your software then the PC has to do major conversion while you are playing, clipping and editing. If, however, you make your editing project as close as possible to the original AVCHD format, very little has to be done, only uncompressing. I have found Edius to do this imperceptibly and I have a modest Core 2 Duo with on-motherboard graphics.

Then you do the rendering when finished and turn it back to 720p or 576 DVD, this will take the time. I leave it run at night and when I get up in the morning it's done.

[SynthLine09]

I have a pretty nice running macbook pro...run of the older models with firewire. It has always ran logic without a problem at all. Do you think thatd be sufficient for AVCHD? I'll be getting a customized mac mini by the end of the school year, so I'm not too worried about computer power.

Can someone suggest another HD format thats easy to work with?

And for that matter, any cameras under $1,000 new?