Splitter Connectors

[xaMdaM]

I know that many of you guys are dedicated ELCO/EDAC guys... and some are Whirlwind MASS guys... as I was. Always cussin' the ELCO screws and fussin' with the MASS pins.

I'm FINALLY going to be putting together a multi-use splitter system for use in up to 3 mobile rigs, and am contemplating getting away from both the MASS and ELCO connector hell, and going with RAMLATCH.

What I'm thinking is 4 - 24x4 heads with 3 way xformer iso and groundlifts in each of the 4 heads.

Building 25' tails puts me in good shape for getting across most decks to any monitor console.

I'm also thinking with the majority of the venue's I deal with, that 50' trunks get me to FOH and 100' trunks get me to the mobile rig 90% of the time.

But before I go chunkin' a lot of cash out to go Ramlatch... are they really as good as they look?

I've only been on one gig where they were used, but man... they did connect easy, and it looked like there was no cussin' or fussin'... no screw issues... no pin issues... and the rig had been out on the road for quite awhile.

Thanx for any headsup
Max

[xaMdaM]

hmmmm... 77 views and no opinions...

Wonnerin' if I just need a bump, or if there's no experience with the Ramlatch connections...

[Fuzzy Logic]

max,

many may be into those elco/edac connectors but i would not use them for everyday splitter or snake use. whirlwind mass w4 are the way to go. they can handle a lot more abuse than the elcos can.

the ramlatch is a very old system that is still in use today. i would pick the w4 before the ramlatch for one important reason. you can drive a car over a w4 and you cant with ramlatch.

i like the rest of your design but i would have 100' snakes to foh and at least 150' to the mobile unit with maybe a few 50' or 75' extensions. i like w4 inline connectors a lot better for extending snake runs.

i know aurasonic was the first remote truck to use mass w4 back in the 80s and those connectors are still in use today.

[xaMdaM]

Thanx for chimin' in Fuzzy!

I really have grown a disdain for my W4 MASS connectors. The pins are mighty irritating as they take a lot of care to keep in working order. Mainly because I end up with folks making the mistake of not listening to me when you tell them to "leave the connect/disconnect to me, the owner of the snake". (Which happens a lot more than you would believe.)

I really like Whirlwind's craftsmanship, but when you have to send a snake back to the mfr for repairs because it would be foolish to undo the connector in the field to make repairs to two or three pins... I got a problem with that. Especially when you've got to pay for shipping 300' trunks to be shipped both ways!

I do a lot of smaller venue location work, and my average cable run is less than 75', so that's why I'm thinkin' 100' is more than adequate to the mobile rig, and with an average building size of 40', when you add a 25' tail on a 50' trunk, that gets me to 75' from the stage to FOH... and with extra 100' trunks, that gets me up to 225' with 3 connections. Granted that's one more connection than I like, but I've only had to go that kind of distance once in 15 years.

I looked at Radial's VLK, and other friends have suggested VEAM and Brundy... any thoughts or experience with these?

[Remoteness]

I understand your issues with your MASS W4 connectors!

This is why I make sure everyone on our crew knows and understands how to mate these connectors. We are the only ones that are allowed to interface our multipin connectors. It's just how it is...

Folks that do not know how to deal with these connectors should not be handling these connectors.

That being said, I've only had one pin break on a system that has been in service since the 80s. It's one our first MASS W4 52/40X2 splitter. Luckily for us the ground pin broke on one of the upper channels, so we still use the splitter. We just make sure no phantom powered mic or device is plugged into that channel. But, think about it -- only one pin in two decades. Awesome!

Please note: If you consider selling your MASS W4, sell them to me.

Hey, if 100' is more than adequate for your runs, go for it.
You can always attach an extension when necessary.

I've heard good things about the Radial's VLK/VEAM connectors, but I haven't used them enough to have an opinion about them.
ITT Cannon VEAM connectors like the VLK are very robust.
The VEAM connectors have been around for a very long time, so that should tell you something about the connector.

[LX3]

From what I've seen, most of the big UK PA companies are using Veam these days (or more typically, a Veam copy like Ten47/Plusconnection... who I understand also supply connectors to Radial). There was a fair bit of Harting years ago, but it seems to me that they're being phased out by most people.

People tend to either use the 85-pin Veam for 24-way snakes, and double them up when they need 48 channels, or just go straight for the 150 for 48-channels. The 150 is physically the same size as the 85.

I've been using the same Veams on my splitters and snakes for eight years without a single failure. (I realise that isn't very long). They're very robust, but I have seen damaged ones on PA rigs - as with any piece of kit, smack it against concrete often enough and something will break eventually. It does seem very hard to break a pin by mating and unmating them though.

One last thing - not all Veam copies are the same quality. I like the Plusconnection ones a lot, and they're reassuringly expensive. There's at least one cheaper make that I found to be not nearly as well made.

It's definitely a false economy to skimp on multipins - or any connector for that matter IMO. It takes some serious effort to build these things, and it is a massive pain (as well as more expensive in the long run) to have to rebuild cables because you picked a cheap connector and it fell apart.

[7rojo7]

I wonder if what they call LK here is the same as VEAM. Mine are very sturdy and watertight. I've never liked EDEL connectors, not even in the studio where they almost never move (we had some patch bays where we would change the position for certain connections for LA signal flow split console reasons, and just moving them every so often in a controlled environment was a royal. In the field?)
But, any connection should handled with care by skilled, instructed, trustworthy and tranquil technicians.
Why does my tube mic make noise now? Because I didn't connect it personally and my assistant didn't take me seriously when I taught him how to do it.
When I was 18, I worked a summer in marine construction. The Captain said, "if you lose a shackle in the water, you're fired". Everything went fine until the middle of August when a shackle was ripped from my hand by a sliding steel cable, it was Wednesday. That night I had a full weeks pay and a long vacation, a shackle cost about 30 cents, I still have a scar on my hand.
If you ruin my expensive connector. How are we going to work? Seems a little heavy handed but the logic is plainly visible.
I trust my LK connectors, they're like a high tech version of a Hubble connector. I have 6 - 8 channel drop boxes with LK outs that I can place around a stage that go to 6 - 8x3 splitters in steel housings (flying, not rack mounted) that have 1 LK in and 3 LK outs, -26dB pad and ground lift for each channel (I have frames if I use 3 or more), with different fanouts or LK breakouts (2x 3 - LK 8ch in to 1 LK 24 ch out - for me), I can size up many different systems.
Good luck with your project!

[Indrestudios]

+1 for Ramlatch. I designed a new splitter a couple years back and went with their 56 channel multipin connectors and breakout snakes, no regrets and not a single bent pin after hundreds of shows. I respectfully disagree with Fuzzy Logic, you probably could drive a truck over these connectors without incident.

[7rojo7]

I checked out the RAM Tech videos. nicey nice. The CPC looks like what I've been using. I don't see the need for all those XLRs though.

[LX3]

Originally Posted by 7rojo7

I wonder if what they call LK here is the same as VEAM.

I believe so. LK are another manufacturer that make Veam "clones", like Plusconnection and one or two others.

The design was developed (as far as I'm aware) by Litton Veam, who themselves were bought by ITT Cannon.

Originally designed for military applications I think. I suppose that means if you tend to break Veams it might be time to find another career

[7rojo7]

The Ram latch looks pretty sturdy, but I'd rather have the pins (M) part on the panel instead of the cable (my preference, OMD)
My LK syste is (was) very modular, coming from a 'studio' background, I can't help myself but to thin that i could be capable to change the signal flow Changing certain connection from half normalled to islated points etc...) at a whim.
Male panel connectors and female Flying connectors cost less than their counterparts, my preference was influenced also by the costs. After a discussion with he who made my system, we agreed that making fanouts and buying xlr gender changing barrels would give me more choices. cables get thrashed around and pin damage possibility increases, female connectors are more susceptible to dirt and dust (covers). I've sold my splitters, except for one, and still have about 25 5m plus female to femal LK25 cables and 6 8 ch male LK25 connector stage boxes, as well as the 5 96 pt TT patch bays that I need to sell. I realize now that only I would want to use this system.
but it worked, and depending on the task at hand, it was either very easy or just slightly tedious. with the xlr barrels i could use a stage box as a return, a few LKF to LKM extensions and I had an extremely flexible system (flying)
If you do smaller gigs it's convenient to have a componable system. With what I saw from Ram Tech, you'd always have to lug that stuff around and carry tons of copper. maybe that's a better way to live after all

[bishopthomas]

Here are the cons to the three main ones that I've used. I haven't found the perfect multipin, so if you come across it please let me know.

W4 Mass:
Forget about building it yourself. I've done it and do not plan on doing it again.
Forget about repairing it if you're using the solder style (are the crimps still available?)
The pins bend and break too easily. Of course we can all say not to let anyone else make/break your connections, but all it takes is one "helpful" stagehand while you're not looking.
The only good thing about this connector is that it's the industry standard (no idea why) so if you need a quick replacement chances are you won't have to go far to find it.

Elco:
Not enough channels.
I've never had any problems with bent pins or failures, but some people have a strong detest for them for this reason.
Not very common. You're never going to find another company to cross rent a section from, especially using the same pinout as you.

Ramlatch:
I had very bad experiences with the snake of a company I used to work for. It's a huge connector and will not fit through mouse holes unless they are huge. I remember using it at a convention center and it wouldn't fit through the floor pocket. They had to drill a new hole before we came in the next time.
It's plastic. Who made that decision? Once it finally broke it did so in a way that we could not disconnect it from the main snake. It went in the truck that way and I never saw it again. One of the smarter moves the owner of that company ever made (he replaced it with a W4 system).
I will say that the modular pin blocks was a nice system. If a channel dies just pull the block (with 8 channels maybe?) and repair it.

[Indrestudios]

I can't speak for long Ramtech snake runs, I only use it for our splitter interconnect for the mic pre rack & the house XLR fanouts. My longest run is only 50'. Our pre rack connects via MADI fiber out to the truck.

I too was on the fence between W4 & the Ramlatch. Sealed the deal with the latter after working on couple gigs with a local sound company who kept chasing bent pins & deformed rubber gaskets on their W4s. You've got little or no hope of field service with a connector of that density.

As BishopThomas mentioned one bonus to W4 is that you can almost always find a rental resource should you need a longer run, or a replacement. Ramlatch is out there, just not as accessible.

I can see how the Ramlatch may be a bit unwieldy should you have to deal with venue mouse holes, I guess we're spoiled as the big stuff always lives inside, only fiber goes outside.

-Michael


Here are a couple pictures:
(1) the back of our 48 channel splitter rack - booties removed
(2) Ramlatch snake fanouts, comfortably coiled in Pelican 1620 case

[LX3]

FWIW, I just pinned an entire 150-pin Veam in about an hour and a half, "in the field" at a festival last weekend. Okay, I had already soldered the pins to the multi back home, but I ran out of time before I had to set off, so packed my tools and did the remainder on-site.

Finished it and successfully tested it (first time!) with about half an hour to spare before it was needed. Plugged up, recorded and mixed the show, everything good.

So as long as you have the right tools, Veams are easy to service in the field. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone of a nervous disposition though

[xaMdaM]

Originally Posted by LX3

So as long as you have the right tools, Veams are easy to service in the field.

Cool... glad to hear it!

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone of a nervous disposition though

Hell, I wouldn't recommend remote recording to anyone with a nervous disposition, either!

[7rojo7]

I have about a hundred towels at home
wherever that is

[LX3]

Originally Posted by xaMdaM

Hell, I wouldn't recommend remote recording to anyone with a nervous disposition, either!

Excellent point I must enjoy living on the edge.

[7rojo7]

we make the edge.. others dream