analog consoles for classical music - suggestions?

[avebr]

Hi to all,

I would like to know your opinions for an all-analog console for classical music, as I'm not an expert on such gear.

It's being considered for a big studio (theater-like, long term) project.

The console would be used as an analog front end (+external preamps collection) to the daw during recording; and as OTB mixing/summing later - so something like a mix-B should be needed?

I believe in 32 ch. or more. It can be a new model or vintage/pre-owned - as long as it doesn't need esoteric or rare parts, impossible to later maintenance.

I would expect quality mic preamps (Millennia or Grace-like), good/usable eq, dynamics could be a bonus if possible - but generally fast & clean console, high headroom, maybe some color/warm/personality but not too much... but I would like to know your opinions and taste on these aspects too!

Budget being considered is around 50-60k, but not too much over it.


Thanks for your reading!


all the best,
ave.

[brew]

Originally Posted by avebr

I believe in 32 ch or more.

Budget being considered is around 50-60k, but not too much over it.

Your channel count and budget don't match many new products on the market. You need to lower the former or raise the latter.

The closest thing is probably a used SSL AWS 900. Its mic pre's are flat to 200 kHz. Maybe Daking, Audient, Toft (not sure how so inexpensive), or Neotek fits the bill.

Or you are into FOH consoles by Midas, Allen & Heath, Mackie, etc, which are not often considered for classical recording, though I'm sure would be just fine.

You say for a theatre, is this for recording or FOH or double-duty?

[Teddy Ray]

id say..

Crookwood

Studer

[avebr]

Originally Posted by brew

Your channel count and budget don't match many new products on the market. You need to lower the former or raise the latter.

You are correct, but I need 32 to 40-something channels, but could have more if possible... We still could reach something like 65k.

I've seen the price of new designs, so I'm considering getting a vintage/preowned console - as long as it's maintenance is viable outside USA...

Originally Posted by brew

The closest thing is probably a used SSL AWS 900. Its mic pre's are flat to 200 kHz. Maybe Daking, Audient, Toft (not sure how so inexpensive), or Neotek fits the bill.

Or you are into FOH consoles by Midas, Allen & Heath, Mackie, etc, which are not often considered for classical recording, though I'm sure would be just fine.

I would avoid both FOH consoles and SSL AWS 900 mostly on a clientele-perspective/view - not my own, as I've heard great works from Midas, even on classical. And here the AWS 900 are entirely associated with commercial rock/pop sound, producers and studios...

Originally Posted by brew

You say for a theatre, is this for recording or FOH or double-duty?

Sorry for my bad english. It's for a big studio project (as analog front end + mixing/summing OTB), with the main recording room 'big like a theater', enough to fit a full size orchestra and adl. players. That's the main part of the project.

Thanks!!!


all the best,
ave.

[SoundWeavers]

you should consult with a pro audio dealer near your location.

[Illusionrake]

Philadelphia Orchestra Chooses Audient

[paul999]

I haven't done full orchestral recordings but I've done many quartets, opera singers, choirs etc. on my D&R. It is very clean. The pre's are very quiet and clean. Granted I mostly use external pre's but I don't really get the whole "classical must be clean" thinking. I have never heard a classical recording harmed by API, Universal Audio or other seriously colored gear. I think Classical benefits from color as much as other types of music.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by brew

...You need to lower the former or raise the latter.

Unfortunately, that about sums it up. Been there, done that. .

Realistically, unless you're willing to accept some significant compromises on sonics, build quality, functionality etc, you are going to basically need to roughly double the budget or halve the track count. An extra 5 or 10k in the budget is not going to make the kind of difference you need.

[Roland]

There are good reason's why people recording classical music steer clear of old analogue consoles, not least noise. I don't agree with the posters above that say you can't afford a classic console, there are plenty available for not much money, but you will be buying yourself a whole load of trouble, not least your maintenance costs will rocket and using it to record classical material you will not get away with "wait till it really becomes a problem", that many rock studio's have done over the years.

You also need to remember that many of these consoles due to the requirements for sends, layout and alike, have an extremely long (and not always common sense) signal path, this in itself leads to noticeable signal degradation.

If you really believe in "analogue summing" (and I don't), buy a summing box/mixer of some kind. Use either remote mic amps or a simple console, such as the type that Decca used for their classical projects. I've seen a couple of this type available over the last 10 years.

Roland

[teo]

Originally Posted by Roland

There are good reason's why people recording classical music steer clear of old analogue consoles, not least noise. I don't agree with the posters above that say you can't afford a classic console, there are plenty available for not much money, but you will be buying yourself a whole load of trouble, not least your maintenance costs will rocket and using it to record classical material you will not get away with "wait till it really becomes a problem", that many rock studio's have done over the years.

You also need to remember that many of these consoles due to the requirements for sends, layout and alike, have an extremely long (and not always common sense) signal path, this in itself leads to noticeable signal degradation.

If you really believe in "analogue summing" (and I don't), buy a summing box/mixer of some kind. Use either remote mic amps or a simple console, such as the type that Decca used for their classical projects. I've seen a couple of this type available over the last 10 years.

Roland

Although I agree about everything you said about maintenance costs, noise/crackle issues and the general problem of running an old LFAC, I just want to point out that the long signal path of quite a few Neve consoles has not harmed the sound of many orchestral recordings over the years. Even with all the talk of pre-amp coloration and convoluted signal path, an orchestra through a neve console sounds nothing short of amazing to me.

The problem is that the OP does not have either the money or the technical expertise to run such a console. When you but this kind of console, you need to be able to do at least some maintenance yourself, because paying somebody to fix minor issues (that come up almost daily) would be crazy expensive.

Good luck with you search!

[Adebar]

I would go for a custom made line mixer from Michael Zähl or from ADT Audio.
There you get very good quality within your price range.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Sonosax???

Older analog Studer console???

Neotek ?????

Older Ramsa analog console with mods???

We used a Soundcraft 200 with lots of modifications for remote recording for a number of years.

[klaukholm]

I am perfectly happy to work on a good (modern, <15 years old) SSL or neve 5.1 desk.
It is often what you get on the big scoring stages and they do the job very well. I have had no problems with noise from the desk itself, and for a theatre, you will never hear the desk self noise for all the noise sources on stage.
That being said, I prefer mixing orchestra on a euphonix system 5 or a Procontrol.
A system 5 with 48-56ch of remote controlled Grace preamps will serve you well and would be my first choice.

as for analogue consoles, Lindell is selling an ex Skywalker Neve that would be perfect for the job albeit expensive to maintain

edit:
I see you have a budget,....give up on an analogue desk on a budget, go with Protools and a D command or the like and add as many remote grace as you have money left over for.
If you want to splurge, go with pyramix and a Ramses or System 5MC

[avebr]

Thanks to everybody posting your opinions!

The entire complex will have smaller rooms with digital/control surfaces, but on the main one we really need an analog console as a 'differential'. We may go up to 65k-70k, but that's our top. We have no 'dealers' nearby, so we can't (at least for now) go out and consult and test a console. This can happen near the purchase, but we are still working 'on the papers', and we need to have some options and ideas.

I've always recorded without consoles using external preamps and mixing ITB, so for me it's hard to choose one. But now this facility must address the needs of other producers and clients - both real and 'psychological' needs.

The main room will be directed to classical/orchestral recording (my thing), but will also be used for other purpouses. It would be great to have a console for both complement our mic preamps and to allow mixing/summing OTB. The intention is to maximise the use of the console/investiment. It also works as a 'decoy' (on a positive sense) for some clientele.

We do have some technical expertise (not myself, but our maintenance engineer), but we must be carefull with hard-to-get/impossible/rare parts. Surely that it's better to have as little maintance as possible, and preventive is better and cheaper.

Audient can be a possibility. The new ones look ok but cost high... Anyone with direct experience with them?

Any other? It doesn't need to be new. Neve? SSL?


I really appreciate all and any comments you can provide me!

Thanks a lot!


all the best,
ave.

[Jim vanBergen]

Personally, I'd look at the Rupert Neve Designs 5088 32 channel mixer, which is around 100k. (First choice.) Audient 8024, second choice.

Let us know what you decide!

[Teddy Ray]

I know a guy that uses the stagetec true match and the mixing desk.. Aurus his records are stunning..

AURUS - the Direct-Access Console

[avebr]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

I know a guy that uses the stagetec true match and the mixing desk.. Aurus his records are stunning..

AURUS - the Direct-Access Console

I know the product line of Stagetec - it's really amazing.

I'm mostly interested on the TrueMatch with 24ch mic in and MADI+ADAT. A new one is around €$ 25000 FOB... but I may be able to 'test-drive' one to hear it by myself - as some people criticises it's 'digital gain'/4 AD per ch. concept.

Their digital consoles are amazing specially for big facilities & theaters, and they have a great digital audio network concept, perfect for broadcast.

But excepting the TrueMatch, it may be [too expensive and a] too closed/proprietary design - that's something that really bothers me. I prefer to choose/configure my analog and digital stages, daw hardware/software, ... and so on - part by part.

Someone mentioned the Euphonix System 5-MC, which appears to me to be the best 'big' controlsurface for a daw.

Anyone have experience with it?

Any price idea (for 32ch / 40ch) ?

I know it's really different from my first post, but at least as a tactile interface, it appears to me just like an analog console would be...

With a new Neve to be at 100k, and considering the maintenance many of you said, I must consider also other options.

Thanks again and please keep the ideas coming!


all the best,
ave.

[Plush]

I would advise you to get a larger Mackie console. Many great recordings, including many from the New York Philharmonic, were done on a Mackie.

If it breaks you can get it serviced or just throw it away and get a different one.

In this way you can put your money in to mics, better pay for you and the others and not blow the budget.

For a modern console I recommend Audient.

I would never buy a used console for your use because reliability will be poor and in your part of the world, parts inventory is poor.

I am totally serious with this post.

[DarkSky Media]

Originally Posted by Plush

In this way you can put your money in to mics, better pay for you and the others and not blow the budget ... I am totally serious with this post.

I don't doubt you are serious, Hud. But you're not a man who's noted for cutting corners - so how soon, I wonder, will you be putting this approach into service yourself. Can we expect to see Mackie listed in your profile alongside Nagra and Flea?

[Doc Mixwell]

A SPECK LILO and a SPECK X-TRA MIX. [Sorry no preamps on that one]

Add X-Sum's to suit the high channel count as needed.

[Plush]

Originally Posted by DarkSky Media

I don't doubt you are serious, Hud. But you're not a man who's noted for cutting corners - so how soon, I wonder, will you be putting this approach into service yourself. Can we expect to see Mackie listed in your profile alongside Nagra and Flea?

I always travel with something from Radio Shack and always too with a Mackie.
YOu never know when you might need it.

I do all my mic testing with a Mackie in my studio bathroom. If it sounds good with the Mackie, then it's bound to sound good with a better set-up.

For the record, I have done hundreds of recordings with a Mackie (original 12 channel box made in USA). They turned out great and sounded much better than the 9 Beethoven Symphonies I worked on in Zagreb on an SSL.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Plush

I always travel with something from Radio Shack and always too with a Mackie.
YOu never know when you might need it.

I do all my mic testing with a Mackie in my studio bathroom. If it sounds good with the Mackie, then it's bound to sound good with a better set-up.

For the record, I have done hundreds of recordings with a Mackie (original 12 channel box made in USA). They turned out great and sounded much better than the 9 Beethoven Symphonies I worked on in Zagreb on an SSL.

I've made a lot of location-recorded CDs with the direct outs of small Mackies, and was quite happy with the sound. Mostly 8, a few 16 chan, didn't use the summing except for monitoring..... Pretty neutral, I thought--the channel's sound was mostly determined by the mic in use (and the inst. + hall). Doing many more channels of Mackie (to be mixed together), as many as the OP was wanting, I've never tried.

phil p

[Unique]

Hi,

If you check maybe you could find in South America a good condition used live analog console such as a Midas H3000, Midas XL4 or even more recent Yamaha PM5000 40-56 ch in 30-40k$ range ... with direct output (right after the preamp for recording).

All advantages : quality audio, portable, low maintenance, live and studio ... speed of analog operations.

With remaining budget : investing in quality condenser microphones ...

[Northernaudioman]

Maybe a CADAC, the S-Type ( analogue ), or C-Type might fit the bill. Great pre-amps and summing.

Cadac Holdings Ltd - Homepage

Oliver.

[themaidsroom]

if I were in your shoes, I would contact Curt Emery of Emery Sound Vintage style all tube guitar amps
and ask him about RCA consoles from the 50's and ask him to
build you a 10 x 2 or 12 x 2 all tube mixer that was just ultra simple
and open and hi fi. I would get an ATR 102 1" 2 track or a deparavicini modified Studer C37 1" and feed these tape recorders alonside a dsd
recorder.

I love the sound of the mid sixties mercury
living presence Lps.

of course, your plan may be different.


be well


jack

[avebr]

It's being great to read all these opinions! thumbsup

About the Mackies, I did myself a lot of work using only the older ones - 12, 16 and 24 chs. When I used 'ok' mics, it sounded 'ok'; when I used 'excellent' mics, it sounded very decent.

I still use an old Mackie for addt./secondary channels when doing mobile recording and I'm with my main preamps full, no problem at all.

I'd say the same concept for those Presonus/Focusrite with ADAT out (very usefull), Firefaces' internal preamps (handy), and so on... usable, ok, decent.

But I can't go back after started using such great preamps as Millennia, Benchmark, Grace and [even the not so liked here] Focusrite Red. This is my personal choice, as are the mics that I like.

For a facility and a marketing point-of-view, to put a Mackie on the kind of studio room for classical/orchestra music that we are projecting could be really bad for business - even if we know it could work - partially, as I'd believe.

But in no way my particular choosing denotes that Mackie and all the other equip. I cited are bad! I just don't believe they entirely up to the kind of quality I'm expecting now. And for the clientele's expectation.

More exotic designs (tube consoles) and/or custom ones get me really excited but I must remember maintenance - always. It does worries me on parts, as I have an amazing tech.

I'll be still looking (and reading here!) for a good while.

Euphonics System 5 MC even being only DAW surface can fits my idea (with some changes), but how much it costs (40ch)?

I see a lot of respect for Audient new line, so I'll be looking there with more attention.

The new Neves looks good but are too expensive and I received no direct comments from any user... Older Neves/SSLs could be nice, depending on parts/maintenance.

I'll give a look too on the new SSLs, if my budget will allow me (I'm not sure).


Thanks again for all and any opinion.


all the best,
ave.

[klaukholm]

Give euphonix a call and describe your needs.
Maybe they can set you up with a demonstration.
It may be worth travelling to the US to get that demo as it is a rather big and important purchase.

[Plush]

Hello Avebr,

I understand how a Mackie may not be suitable for your set-up.

I echo other posters who have suggested a CADAC type C console. This beautiful console is set up to mix stereo, feed the multitracks and mix 5.1 all at the same time. Mic amps and summing section are first class and build quality is what Neve used to be. Made in UK. Other CADAC consoles are standard in all big broadway theaters in the USA and internationally.
CADAC may or may not be in business to the degree that they can still supply the C series consoles.


Audient is also good if you need to not spend as much money.
If you are interested in Euphonix, be prepared to pay for service on site with people flying in from the USA.

[Marlan]

For the money, Audient all the way in my opinion. Also the smaller SSL 900 is pretty cool. Not as cheap as I would like (cost that is).

Something to think about: Do you remember that Sony Dmx R100 that every classical guy under the sun was buying a few years ago? They are excellent boards and you can easily find one in fantastic shape for under $5000. (they used to be $20,000!!!)

Plush gave the soundest advice in my mind. I too use Mackies all the time. Not really front end anymore for major stuff but it does the job just fine. I always say Mackies are like the Bic cigarette lighters of mixers- when it starts giving you trouble you throw it in the garbage and get another one.

[softwareguy]

I would give Jim Williams a call at Audio Upgrades and see what he could do for you in a modified Soundcraft or other similar console. His preamps and summing are phenomenally pure and open sounding, and i'll bet he could meet your budget.