Which Schoeps for piano recording with bad acoustics?

[Bechstein]

Hello everybody,

I need to record a grand piano at home. It is a 20 sq.m. room with bad acoustics (you know, too much sound, too many reflections...).

What Schoeps capsule should I use?

Thank you in advance.

[John Willett]

Listen to the room - I had to do this once and the best mics were still the omnis I normally use (MKH 20 then) - I just found I had to put them in a completely different place than normal to get the best sound.

It was a 9-foot Steinway Concert Grand in a large living room that was really far too small for the piano - but it worked.

So, I would sat try the Schoeps omnis you would normally use - and if they don't work well enough, try the wide-cardioids.

But - get someone to play and move around the room and listen with your ears to find the best place and/or do a few test recordings with the mics in different positions.

I hope this helps.

[Corran]

I've gotten great recordings of piano in smallish jazz clubs with MK2 omnis. If it really is that awful, I would probably try the MK4 cardioids. I don't own the MK21 wide cardioid so I have no experience with that.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Corran

I've gotten great recordings of piano in smallish jazz clubs with MK2 omnis. If it really is that awful, I would probably try the MK4 cardioids. I don't own the MK21 wide cardioid so I have no experience with that.

A grand can sound thin with cardioids compared to omnis as the omni has an extra octave at the bottom end.

That's why I suggested the wide-cardioids if the omni does not work.

And the Schoeps cardioids do tend to roll off earlier than some others in the bass end which may accentuate this.

[Corran]

While I'd agree for most cardioids, the Schoeps MK4 to me has a much fuller sound than other cardioids I have worked with.

[Bechstein]

Thank you John and Corran,

The room is not very, very bad. In fact, we play violin here and is OK. The problem is the combination of an 8 feet grand piano with terrazzo floors, bare walls and ceiling plaster, you know...

My doubt is, if treating the acoustics (even in a sort of DIY way...) I could manage a couple of MK2 omnis or, if even though I should buy any of the cardioid family...

I've seen that at Schoeps they reccomend the MK22 as a spot mic -and specially for the grand piano-. I guess that the MK21 probably should work fine aswell. But... the MK2 in this room? (I'd love it, by the way, don't misunderstand me...)

PS: I even have considered the possibility of buying a DPA SMK4061 set for inside the piano, but I think MK's and 4061's play in different leagues... Am I wrong?

Thank you.

[RobAnderson]

I'll second the notion of MK21's on piano over the MK4's.

The MK4's just don't do it for me on classical piano, but I have gotten very respectable results in not-so-great acoustics with the MK21's - even in situations where the room was so live that an omni would not work even at close range.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I'll second the notion of MK21's on piano over the MK4's.

The MK4's just don't do it for me on classical piano, but I have gotten very respectable results in not-so-great acoustics with the MK21's - even in situations where the room was so live that an omni would not work even at close range.

Thanks for the reply, Rob. I guess you didn't try the MK22's, did you?

PS: I have to say that the first motion I second is the one on your signature: "Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense." - G. Stein 1946 That perfectly describes my actual situation... You know, for similar reasons Lao Tse said that a battle should not last too long

Thanks again!

[RobAnderson]

I have never heard the MK22 - is that the one with high frequency boost?

I still consider the MK21 as my "desert island" mic for classical recording. It deals with bad acoustics well, but still capture color in a way that the cardioids do not - softer top and bigger bottom.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

but I think MK's and 4061's play in different leagues... Am I wrong?

IMO yes. Very different mics. But in a bad room, the ablity of the DPA to pick a rather natural sound when set close to the strings is a strong asset providing that you are prepared to apply EQ and reverb to get a recording sounding like classical piano.
May this sample change your idea about this mic ?

[Bechstein]

Sorry, sorry, sorry! I meant 4011, not 4061...

(Thank you for the sample, it sounds very good indeed)

[didier.brest]

The 4011 is the direct competitor to the Schoeps MK4 wile the 4006 is the one to the MK2 and the 4015 the one to the MK21. DPA or Schoeps is an endless debate. Just a matter of taste.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

The 4011 is the direct competitor to the Schoeps MK4 wile the 4006 is the one to the MK2 and the 4015 the one to the MK21. DPA or Schoeps is an endless debate. Just a matter of taste.

Do you think that 4011 are true competitors to any Schoeps capsules?

(I'm asking it "innocently")

[rumleymusic]

Do you think that 4011 are true competitors to any Schoeps capsules?

(I'm asking it "innocently")

Absolutely. They are some of the finest cardioids made and are the first choice of spots for many fine engineers.

For piano, however, I don't think anything will beat omnis in the same class. And I will go for the 4006 over Schoeps mk2 any day for that.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Thanks for the reply, Rob. I guess you didn't try the MK22's, did you?

PS: I have to say that the first motion I second is the one on your signature: "Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense." - G. Stein 1946 That perfectly describes my actual situation... You know, for similar reasons Lao Tse said that a battle should not last too long

Thanks again!

Dear friends,

I'm sorry I have to quote myself, but I'm loosing my one final screw...

Of course DPA 4011 are true competitors to any Schoeps!!!

I meant if 4061's have any options against Schoeps MK's...

I apologize again. I'm very tired.

[RobAnderson]

Just to add to the confusion, from the times I have used the 4011 on piano, I think I can say that I prefer it to the MK4.

But the MK21 would still be my "go-to" thing on a good piano in a bad room.

[hughesmr]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

But the MK21 would still be my "go-to" thing on a good piano in a bad room.

I can second this opinion. Recorded a recital last spring in a "recital hall" with a 10' ceiling. Seriously. This was at a university, too.

9' Steinway om full stick. Ran a pr of MK21s in pretty close (4 ft away) in a narrow AB. After some tweaking in post (reverb, etc), the pianist was extremely happy. I even have his email to me --

"Quite frankly I'm shocked how good you managed to get it to sound given the difficult acoustics of the hall. I have a lot of classical recordings and a very revealing headphone setup (Grado RS1 through a Melos amplifier) and your recording sounds better than 95% of the professionally mastered classical recordings in my collection.”

I was honestly shocked to read this. The recording was OK, but certainly not worthy of this comment. (Of course, I have no idea what his classical collection is!)

[videoteque]

It's not more inteligent to (at least try to) solve your problem first (bad acoustics) and then deal with the kind of mic??? Imagine someone asking, what's the best mic to record a piano out of tune???

Moquetas, mantas, difusores, usa la imaginación!!!

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Dear friends,

I'm sorry I have to quote myself, but I'm loosing my one final screw...

Of course DPA 4011 are true competitors to any Schoeps!!!

I meant if 4061's have any options against Schoeps MK's...

I apologize again. I'm very tired.

4061 and 4060 are the same mics except that 4061 can afford higher SPL and as a counterpart has higher self-noise. So my previous post about the 4060 answered your question. IMO, in bad acoustics, the DPA 4060/4061 is a valuable alternative to any Schoeps MK because of its ability to work fine inside the piano.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by videoteque

It's not more inteligent to (at least try to) solve your problem first (bad acoustics) and then deal with the kind of mic??? Imagine someone asking, what's the best mic to record a piano out of tune???

Moquetas, mantas, difusores, usa la imaginación!!!

I agree. BUT it is not only a matter of "excess" of reflections, -I can fix that-, but the room won't even sound beautiful -you know- but, let's say... "not awful"!

I mean, even with the problem partially fixed, true omnis shouldn't be the first option.

Don't know, this is my common sense speaking, but I'm not an expert AT ALL. Am I wrong?

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

4061 and 4060 are the same mics except that 4061 can afford higher SPL and as a counterpart has higher self-noise. So my previous post about the 4060 answered your question. IMO, in bad acoustics, the DPA 4060/4061 is a valuable alternative to any Schoeps MK because of its ability to work fine inside the piano.

1.- Well, I won't play Rachmaninov, so maybe 4060's SPL shall be enough?

2.- Sound examples from DPA website (4061's) reveals a terrible mechanical noise coming from the instrument (pedal or whatever). Could it be a problem of THAT piano in particular (or maybe the pianist's technique, -too agressive...), or should I expect to live with that because of the mic placement ("very" inside the piano or even attached to the instrument itself)?

3.- 4061's noise -26dB(A)- is too much noise for a mic, isn't it? Or it is possible to live with that?

4.- Any Schoeps stereo set is more than three times more expensive than the 4061's... Well, I'm ready to pay the money if neccesary, but more important than the future (Schoeps are maybe "forever") I have to approach the actual problem with the best warranties, so:

MK21/22 (or maybe the good DPA's) OR DPA 4060/61...?

Am I creating too much confusion?

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Listen to the room - I had to do this once and the best mics were still the omnis I normally use (MKH 20 then) - I just found I had to put them in a completely different place than normal to get the best sound.

It was a 9-foot Steinway Concert Grand in a large living room that was really far too small for the piano - but it worked.

So, I would sat try the Schoeps omnis you would normally use - and if they don't work well enough, try the wide-cardioids.

But - get someone to play and move around the room and listen with your ears to find the best place and/or do a few test recordings with the mics in different positions.

I hope this helps.

Dear John,

Do you really think that I could pick a decent sound from the piano in such environment with two omnis without being a pro at all?

I'm asking wholeheartedly...

[didier.brest]

1.- Well, I won't play Rachmaninov, so maybe 4060's SPL shall be enough?

I never made my 4060s to clip. So I think that because of its lower noise, an interesting feature when you don't use the mic very close to the source, 4060 is a better choice than 4061. (May be not for drums or guitar cabinet...)

2.- Sound examples from DPA website (4061's) reveals a terrible mechanical noise coming from the instrument (pedal or whatever). Could it be a problem of THAT piano in particular (or maybe the pianist's technique, -too agressive...), or should I expect to live with that because of the mic placement ("very" inside the piano or even attached to the instrument itself)?

Yes the risk of picking some unwanted noises from the piano action is larger when you get closer. I did not find it to be a major limitation.

3.- 4061's noise -26dB(A)- is too much noise for a mic, isn't it? Or it is possible to live with that?

3. Self-noise is not an issue when the mics are inside the piano because the signal level is high. What is critical is not the noise level itself but the signal-to-noise ratio. 4060 self-noise is 23 dBA, which is not good but not so bad. I've got a Manley Reference Gold that is noisier.

MK21/22 (or maybe the good DPA's) OR DPA 4060/61...?

Both options are worth. Can't decide for you. For recording piano in a good room, take the Schoeps.
Outside the piano test
MK21
4060

[Bechstein]

Thank you for the explanations, Didier, concepts are more clear now...

And thank you for the sound files... Very revealing!

By the way, may I ask you which piano you have?

[didier.brest]

The piano is a Steingraeber 205.

[Bechstein]

Sounds beautiful!

I hope to be able to send my own samples veeery soon

PS: To be honest, I liked the MK21 sample much more...

[didier.brest]

Yes for recording from ouside the piano, I would recommend MK21 rather than DPA 4060 if the budget is not of concern.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Dear John,

Do you really think that I could pick a decent sound from the piano in such environment with two omnis without being a pro at all?

I'm asking wholeheartedly...

Yes, actually - your ears are the best tool you have.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Yes, actually - your ears are the best tool you have.

You know me very well

PS: MK2? Really?
PS2: Why do I need something below 50hz if the lowest note on the piano is precisely 50hz?

Thank you.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Yes for recording from ouside the piano, I would recommend MK21 rather than DPA 4060 if the budget is not of concern.

Of course the budget is of concern but I have to do it...

Thx!