Which Schoeps for piano recording with bad acoustics?

[RobAnderson]

I am pretty sure the lowest fundamental on a 9-footer is lower than 50Hz.

Isn't it an octave below that - 27 Hz or something around there?

Either way, the omni's get the low end on a piano better than anything, but I'll take the MK21 over them when the tradeoff is bad acoustics.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I am pretty sure the lowest fundamental on a 9-footer is lower than 50Hz.

Isn't it an octave below that - 27 Hz or something around there?

Either way, the omni's get the low end on a piano better than anything, but I'll take the MK21 over them when the tradeoff is bad acoustics.

Yes, you're right, less than 30hz. Sorry!

I don't want to resist against the MK21 (I wish I could), but Schoeps recommends the MK22 as a spot mic, specially for the piano and it also has both flatter response and less omni thing than the MK21...

PS: Sorry, Rob, I really appreciate your advice, I wouldn't like to be overpost. Of course MK21 is a safe bet, it's just that I usually tend to loop the loop (can I say so?)

Thank you, best regards.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Why do I need something below 50hz if the lowest note on the piano is precisely 50hz?

Harmonics.

I once tried mic setups on a Steinway concert grand.

Spaced pair of MKH 20 vs MS pair of MKH 40/30 (and the 40 has a very good bottom end compared to other cardioids).

The 40/30 sounded thin and lacking in bass compared to the 20s - so I used the omnis.

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Harmonics.

The harmonics have higher frequencies than the fundamental. if 50 Hz is the lowest note fundamental, the music content has no frequency lower than that. But to sound good in the lows, the mic shall have a response extended below the lowest frequency of the musical contents.

[RobAnderson]

The real thing is, even if a cardioid has a response down to 20 Hz, it is generally rolling off much higher up - often higher than 100 Hz. For whatever reason, no amount of EQ'ing will get it to what a real omni sounds like in the bass.

Also, depending on how far away the cardioid is from the source, the rolloff may be even more severe than the diagrams would show.

I am almost always disappointed when I have to use ORTF or some type of cardioid array on classical piano. It sounds thin and weak compared to when you use omni's

PS: Sorry, Rob, I really appreciate your advice, I wouldn't like to be overpost. Of course MK21 is a safe bet, it's just that I usually tend to loop the loop (can I say so?)

No worries man - I hate to sound like a broken record. It's just my opinion, and it's worth every penny you paid for it

Maybe before you take the dive, talk to your Schoeps dealer and ask if you would be able to compare the capsules on your piano somehow - maybe you purchase the pair but with the understanding that you will have the option of exchanging the capsules or something.

If you are going to spend that kind of money, make sure that you are getting the best bang for your buck possible.

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by RobAnderson

I am almost always disappointed when I have to use ORTF or some type of cardioid array on classical piano. It sounds thin and weak compared to when you use omni's.

Definitely.

...

OK, this is what I did:

Not John nor Rob I finally bought a stereo set with the MK22 capsules. If I'm not convinced when I try them, I'll change them for the MK21. And, if still not convinced, I'll call a sound engineer.

Thank you all for your advices.

We keep on touch.

[John Willett]

Great.

Just spent two hard and long (but enjoyable) days in London recording solo piano.

Omnis, as I said, are always my "go to" mics for piano.

If acoustics are not good and I could not get the result with omnis, then wide-cardioid would be the choice.

The Schoeps ones are very good, but if money was a bit tight and I needed the quality - then I would look at the MBHO versions.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[Bechstein]

I can't double-post files, so I leave the link where I posted two samples in distant and close miking:

Inside the grand piano: close miking techniques

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

1.- Well, I won't play Rachmaninov, so maybe 4060's SPL shall be enough?

2.- Sound examples from DPA website (4061's) reveals a terrible mechanical noise coming from the instrument (pedal or whatever). Could it be a problem of THAT piano in particular (or maybe the pianist's technique, -too agressive...), or should I expect to live with that because of the mic placement ("very" inside the piano or even attached to the instrument itself)?

3.- 4061's noise -26dB(A)- is too much noise for a mic, isn't it? Or it is possible to live with that?

4.- Any Schoeps stereo set is more than three times more expensive than the 4061's... Well, I'm ready to pay the money if neccesary, but more important than the future (Schoeps are maybe "forever") I have to approach the actual problem with the best warranties, so:

MK21/22 (or maybe the good DPA's) OR DPA 4060/61...?

Am I creating too much confusion?

I would not dream of using my 4061s inside a piano unless it were a jazz or pop sound I was after. SPL is not a concern as long as it is not a piano/jet turbine duet. Self-noise is a non-issue for jazz or pop. As to piano noises-- you must know where to put the mics, and on top of the V-bar above the dampers is NOT the place. I have never heard such noises with any piano (usually a Steinway D).

For classical I would not want to get any closer than 2m for mains-- regardless of mic type.

Rich

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Why do I need something below 50hz if the lowest note on the piano is precisely 50hz?

The lowest A on the average piano is 27.5Hz-- the lowest C on a Bosendorfer Imperial is 16Hz-- sort of. Not much fundamental on either, however.

Rich

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by sonare

For classical I would not want to get any closer than 2m for mains-- regardless of mic type.

You can do that only in a good sound hall.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

You can do that only in a good sound hall.

I beg to disagree-- the sound of the instrument itself takes precedence, and I rarely get to record piano in a wonderful hall.

Different strokes---

Rich

[didier.brest]

In a normal room at home the critical range is about 1 m. In my room it becomes bad beyond 0.5 m. Current piano recordings from major labels (DG for instance) done in good halls have their main pair closer than 2 meter.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

In a normal room at home the critical range is about 1 m. In my room it becomes bad beyond 0.5 m. Current piano recordings from major labels (DG for instance) done in good halls have their main pair closer than 2 meter.

I have not attempted to record a piano in a home. DGG (as you likely know) no longer has a production department-- it is all done by Emil Berliner Studios with a few things done by others.

Go to EMIL BERLINER STUDIOS | Willkommen

Look at the third rotating picture under the header "Welcome"-- the first two are studio shots.

Rich

[didier.brest]

Do you refer to the attached picture ? There is a close pair
There is also this other one on the right side of the page, where the pair at the tail is rather close.
Note that this thread is about the 'bad acoustics' case, which is not well illustrated by these pictures...

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Noe that this thread is about the 'bad acoustics' case, which is not well illustrated by these pictures...

Well, the curtains are pretty similar to those of my living room...

[sonare]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Do you refer to the attached picture ? There is a close pair
There is also this other one on the right side of the page, where the pair at the tail is rather close.
Note that this thread is about the 'bad acoustics' case, which is not well illustrated by these pictures...

This has to do with your off-topic assertion that DGG piano recordings have the main pair closer than 2m-- the pic on the right ("Welcome") shows a pair of 170s in close and a pair of Sennheiser Twins on a silver stand definitely farther away than 2m. Generally EBS goes for a close+further away with a mix of both. Hudson learned this in Germany many years ago. It works very well, and after getting used to it one pair just doesn't make it.

Rich

[didier.brest]

Yes but in this case, one pair has a higher level in the mix.
An example (recent DG recording) where the main pair is the close one.
(Main pair @ 15', room mic stands in large AB @ 50'. Samples in good audio quality available here.)

[sonare]

You did not see that there are THREE pair-- also a typical tonmeister approach-- a CLOSE pair (sometimes lower to get the sound off the case), a MAIN (Haupt) pair usually 2-3m high and 1m apart (more in this example) placed to get the sound appropriate to the repertoire, and the HALL pair placed and mixed for desired amount of "bloom."

Hudson sent me a disk he did at Carnegie Hall using this method, and it sounded fantastic (while the chorus of naysayers said "but you only have 2 ears").

Rich

[didier.brest]

Yes I saw another stand still further. It may be a mic stand or not. But what you say being the main pair seems much too far to me for being actually the main pair. From the samples available from qobuz I'm quite sure that the main pair is the close one. Do you know the attached document showing mic placements for some top piano recordings ?

[sonare]

I have seen the PDF before-- very interesting, and if nothing else shows that there is a wide variety of ways to "skin a cat." Current EBS practice is to use Senn 800 Twins for much of their "important" things (piano mains, vocal mains rather than TLM 170).

I will email a producer friend who works often with Stephan Flock and see what the current practice is.

I also suggest asking Hudson AKA Plush about this.

Rich

[Bechstein]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

Do you know the attached document showing mic placements for some top piano recordings ?

I swear I replied to this post... didn't I ? I think I'm going mad...

Anyway, this is an amazing document that I hope I could take to the battlefield soon... Thank you for posting it.

Originally Posted by sonare

You did not see that there are THREE pair-- also a typical tonmeister approach-- a CLOSE pair (sometimes lower to get the sound off the case), a MAIN (Haupt) pair usually 2-3m high and 1m apart (more in this example) placed to get the sound appropriate to the repertoire, and the HALL pair placed and mixed for desired amount of "bloom."

Rich

This makes a lot of sense theoretically, and to my ear is unbeatable.

[sonare]

Originally Posted by Bechstein

Anyway, this is an amazing document that I hope I could take to the battlefield soon...

I cannot imagine having enough time to try even two of the various setups. Also, several of the mics mentioned (U89 SM69) are no longer made, and although Ex 1 is very close to what I do, the height (1.5m) and distance (6.4m) would not be what my ears wish to hear. Also remember that some of the examples are for recordings done with a different aesthetic-- taste as well as ADC are no longer what they were in 1991-- not to mention that this is a Steinway D (probably Hamburg) voiced to please the particular artist.

Ex 2 looks doable, however-- using 4006 with black grids and setting the 170s to cardioid

By far the best path is to have a sound in your head and do not stop trying different positions and mics until you achieve it.

Rich