remote solo/duo recording

[hombre]

i need some help deciding on a portable rig for solo/duo piano recording.

for now i have a laptop and an echo expresscard which i am happy with as an interface. i have some mics and i just broke my diy preamp.

so the first option is just buy/build a decent preamp and be done with it. but i have been lured by the convenience of something ultra portable, which seems affordable and possible as of late with the sony, zoom and tascam little 24/96 recorders.

i have never used miniature microphones before and have researching the good ones like dpa 406x, church audio, dsm, countryman, etc.

up until recently i was under the impression that these mini mics were not of good quality, but it looks like i am wrong about that???

for a reference point i have recorded with AT822, km83, some rca ribbons, sm57m, rode nt stereo xy ( too bright for me in a small room).

the room i have at home is not good and the piano isn't great, but the ceilings are high and if the playing is good it will be acceptable. there will also be available other rooms with much better pianos. so the source quality will vary dramatically, but it's always about the playing for me first and the equipment second.

from what i understand the sony pcm m10 has two close omnis, which is suspect for some purists but i am not terrible concerned with sound stage. the zoom i heard has a decent mic but not so good preamps and the line in is not designed correctly and it can be noisy. the tascam hr has adjustable xy cardioids.

i am not sure but i am going to assume that the a/d on all these units will be comparable to the echo iox. ?????

i am leaning toward going with omni mics since i can get close to the instrument without any proximity effect, and just eliminate as much room sound as i need accordingly. or when i am in a good room, back it off accordingly to capture room. for condensers i have always had best luck with omnis in a bad room, even though i know it sounds counter-logical. but i just move them in close and don't worry about proximity.

the ideal situation is just using one of these recorders with their mics, and i have a feeling that in a great room with great piano this will be good for me, but possibly not in my small not so good room. which leads me to getting some miniature mics, most likely omni.

i was not aware until recently that i could get some good sounds from PIP mics. so which of the above mentioned mics would be appropriate? or how much of a difference will they make compared to the internal mics on the machines i mentioned and how will they stack up the mics i have used like a km83 or the at822.

the dsm headband looks interesting but i can't see wearing a headband while playing, and i'm not shelling out $700 for a binaural head at this point. i may want to experiment with these at some later point in my life.

apparently there are a few models that will work with PIP. this would be great from a portability standpoint. i would most likely use high sensitivity microphones since i am not recording loud concerts, but close up to a loud transient, piano can produce some high spl.

[Accurate]

Hi, it all depends what you intend to do with the recordings. Are you making them for your own use, commercial release, etc.?

I would definitely try omnis first since you can get them in closer if you don't want that much room. Also, I think two omnis in AB sound much more natural than ORTF or XY but there may be others who disagree.

If you're on a budget Avenson omnis sound amazing on piano, but you can't put them too far away or the noise is going to be a factor.

Using the built-in mics on one of those portable recorders is not going to cut it for professional work, but for rehearsal recordings and things of that nature they are fine. Also, the pres on some of those portable recorders can be a bit noisy as well, so if you have a noisy mic+noisy pre you may have some trouble.

[didier.brest]

For inside piano recording, I recommend the DPA 4060. I put a sample here. For outside placement, but close to the piano if the room is bad, you might prefer the Avenson Sto-2. Nearly same budget for both these mics in Europe, about 700 € a pair. There are a lot of alternatives of course. It depends on your buget. The preamp is far less critical than the mics IMO: even the integrated preamps in audio interfaces may be good enough for high quality recording.

[John Willett]

Piano recording is my speciality.

I use a Nagra VI recorder.

I use omni mics and have the following to choose from (all pairs):
MKH 20
MKH 8020
KM 183-D
KM 131-D
I am also considering a pair of MBHO sub-cardioids as well.

Normally only a single pair is required - but the extra tracks of the Nagra give me the opportunity to add room mics further back.

On the recordings I did last week I used a pair of KM 131-D and a Soundfield SPS200 as a room mic. as I am not editing this one and the client requested the room mics (but I think I got it all with the main pair).

I monitor with K+H O110D, HD 800 & HD 25-1 with Grace m902b.

I hope this helps.



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[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Piano recording is my speciality.

I use omni mics and have the following to choose from (all pairs):
MKH 20
MKH 8020
KM 183-D
KM 131-D

What sound difference between Sennheiser and Neumann ?
Did you ever try DPA ?

[hombre]

i used some ribbon mics years ago to record piano and that was about the best i had ever encountered for being able to handle transient peaks with zero distortion.

will the 4060's be able to handle loud transients if positioned near hammers?

what is a safe max spl rating to be able to handle these types of peaks on piano. i used a little handheld that is rated max 123db and overloaded it with some of the peaky high notes. i have overloaded km 184's that were not even directly near the hammers.

perhaps the 4061's would be better? or some of the medium sensitivity mics?

or maybe different mics for different situations. low noise for distant recordings and higher noise/higher spl handling for getting in really close.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by didier.brest

What sound difference between Sennheiser and Neumann ?
Did you ever try DPA ?

Difficult to quantify. The Sennheiser have an ultra-low double-tone distortion figure which does increase clarity and are extremely quiet. The 8000 series have an extremely fast transient response. The Neumanns I used were the KM-D digital series and are extremely quiet as the ADC is right next to the capsule.

As I was recording different pianos in different halls, I cannot really comment on sound differences.

I have not really tried DPA in anger (though I do highly respect them). Back when the MKH20 came out, I was talking to Tony Faulkner and he said that one of the DPA omnis sounded great, but was a bit noisy and the other was quiet but did not sound so good - and the MKH20 sounded both good and was very quiet. So I stuck with the MKH20 as my main piano mic. for many years.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[didier.brest]

Originally Posted by hombre

will the 4060's be able to handle loud transients if positioned near hammers?

I never used them close to the hammers. I am using them either like normal omnis outside the piano or on the frame like shown by DPA:

[hombre]

for grands i would try to mount them like you illustrated, but for uprights i just want to get them in the piano a bit, and unfortunately that means nearer to the hammers on an upright. i am not going to mess around with mounting them at the bottom of an upright.