Building the smallest multitrack rig possible...

[ajcdrum]

Hey everyone,

Here's my brief history... I went to a music conservatory in Boston. I started recording recitals and soon built up a pretty good reputation and collection of gear. My last year there I was recording about 3 recitals a week. 2 years back I started offering live multitrack recordings. They turn out fantastic but I need to consolidate my rig.

Now I have a full time job and I'm moving back in town, minutes from school in hopes that I can grow my recording business even more. Last year I finished building my stereo rig with an MR1000, DAVBG1, DPAs, new snake... all fitting in one tiny rolling bag. I show up to the gig with the bag and a stand and I'm recording in 5 minutes. It's heaven! I want to make my multitrack rig the same (I know, I'm dreaming).

My current rig is an HD24, 1604 for pres and monitoring (I'd like to replace with a millenia 8ch soon), MR1000 for stereo backup, 16 channel snake, a bunch of shitty mic stands, cables, and all my mics. When I show up to the gig I normally have a handcart with the HD24 and mixer, a snare drum case with the snake, and a big long suitcase with everything else. It weighs a ton and it's annoying.

Here's what I'm envisioning. One slant top rack with the mixer and recorder, all prewired with a nice input panel on the top. One flightcase with custom made dividers for everything else.

My multitrack recordings are generally of small jazz groups. A VERY typical set up for me would be: 2 DPA4060s on piano, AT4033 on bass, 2 MC012s on drums, RE20 on kick, 2 KSM27s up front for horns, singers, etc... I'd love to get some quality, extremely collapsible mic stands. I've been eying the audix microbooms too... I've seen a couple videos from some european jazz festivals where they mic'ed every instrument with schoeps collete tubes. The recordings sound amazing but imagine the tear down! They probably all fit in small rifle case, stands included. That would be incredible... but unfortunately way beyond my budget... Maybe I can make some similar homemade thing to mount 4060s (I'd like to pick up some more anyway)?

I want a rig that is easy to transport and quick to set up. I'm thinking things like designing cases where I can keep mics in mounts, maybe even on stands! I'd love to set up in under 15 minutes. Does anybody have any creative suggestions? Any pictures of your gear packed up?

Thanks for reading.

[joelpatterson]

I dreamed the strangest dream JUST like you did, and I had a rolling Stanley toolchest with everything onboard-- you just opened a panel on the back, plugged in the mics, and you were off to the races: rack 'o pre's into an HD24 and Mixwizard for monitoring.

The only fatal flaw was that the thing weighed 100 pounds and you needed wheelchair access wherever you went.

So, these days I am "metro-modular"-- HD24 in its box, pre's in their's, cables and stuff in a rolling suitcase.

It's really the rational solution for an ageless dilemma... but keep dreaming until your dreams come true.

[philper]

Originally Posted by ajcdrum

Hey everyone,

Here's my brief history... I went to a music conservatory in Boston. I started recording recitals and soon built up a pretty good reputation and collection of gear. My last year there I was recording about 3 recitals a week. 2 years back I started offering live multitrack recordings. They turn out fantastic but I need to consolidate my rig.

Now I have a full time job and I'm moving back in town, minutes from school in hopes that I can grow my recording business even more. Last year I finished building my stereo rig with an MR1000, DAVBG1, DPAs, new snake... all fitting in one tiny rolling bag. I show up to the gig with the bag and a stand and I'm recording in 5 minutes. It's heaven! I want to make my multitrack rig the same (I know, I'm dreaming).

My current rig is an HD24, 1604 for pres and monitoring (I'd like to replace with a millenia 8ch soon), MR1000 for stereo backup, 16 channel snake, a bunch of shitty mic stands, cables, and all my mics. When I show up to the gig I normally have a handcart with the HD24 and mixer, a snare drum case with the snake, and a big long suitcase with everything else. It weighs a ton and it's annoying.

Here's what I'm envisioning. One slant top rack with the mixer and recorder, all prewired with a nice input panel on the top. One flightcase with custom made dividers for everything else.

My multitrack recordings are generally of small jazz groups. A VERY typical set up for me would be: 2 DPA4060s on piano, AT4033 on bass, 2 MC012s on drums, RE20 on kick, 2 KSM27s up front for horns, singers, etc... I'd love to get some quality, extremely collapsible mic stands. I've been eying the audix microbooms too... I've seen a couple videos from some european jazz festivals where they mic'ed every instrument with schoeps collete tubes. The recordings sound amazing but imagine the tear down! They probably all fit in small rifle case, stands included. That would be incredible... but unfortunately way beyond my budget... Maybe I can make some similar homemade thing to mount 4060s (I'd like to pick up some more anyway)?

I want a rig that is easy to transport and quick to set up. I'm thinking things like designing cases where I can keep mics in mounts, maybe even on stands! I'd love to set up in under 15 minutes. Does anybody have any creative suggestions? Any pictures of your gear packed up?

Thanks for reading.

The main way I can suggest to shrink your rig is to lose the HD24 and the board. Go the JoeCo route with outboard racks of pres, or the laptop+app+interface route. Mic stands need to be somewhat heavy to work well, but the Shure S16 types are pretty lightweight (and fragile). I got a rolling case made for golf clubs to move my stands in, much more convenient than a case for up to about 15 stands. Snakes are what they are, unfortunately. The smallest 16 track rig I know of would be a Deva 16.

phil p

[ajcdrum]

I'm pretty comfy with my HD24 now. I've gone the laptop and interface route and it just makes me weary. The rack is something that will certainly evolve though... I bought the mackie very hastily cause I needed a replacement board for a gig that night. The pres sounded fine so I kept it. Although I have been eying pres like the Millenia HV3 or Precision 8. Or even one or two API 8MX2s to get some summing action. I have the privilege of recording some of the best young jazz musicians out there so the difference between my Mackie pres and my DAVs in the chain, really makes little impact. Also, I love pressing a big fat RECORD button, and that's probably never going to change. If I can get a flightcase together for everything else, throw the rack on top, put it all on one handcart that I can walk about half a mile with, I'm a happy camper.

What I'm more concerned with it is that flight case. Lightweight stands are a priority. FAST setup is huge priority. I also want to keep this strictly a 2 case rig. Nothing else needed. (Building a case for my multicam HD video rig will be a separate future discussion!) I want to hear some creative ideas and some success stories!

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by ajcdrum

... I want to hear some creative ideas and some success stories!

You'll really learn more from people who have tried things and failed... not to cast a pall or nothin'....

[philper]

Originally Posted by ajcdrum

I'm pretty comfy with my HD24 now. I've gone the laptop and interface route and it just makes me weary. The rack is something that will certainly evolve though... I bought the mackie very hastily cause I needed a replacement board for a gig that night. The pres sounded fine so I kept it. Although I have been eying pres like the Millenia HV3 or Precision 8. Or even one or two API 8MX2s to get some summing action. I have the privilege of recording some of the best young jazz musicians out there so the difference between my Mackie pres and my DAVs in the chain, really makes little impact. Also, I love pressing a big fat RECORD button, and that's probably never going to change. If I can get a flightcase together for everything else, throw the rack on top, put it all on one handcart that I can walk about half a mile with, I'm a happy camper.

What I'm more concerned with it is that flight case. Lightweight stands are a priority. FAST setup is huge priority. I also want to keep this strictly a 2 case rig. Nothing else needed. (Building a case for my multicam HD video rig will be a separate future discussion!) I want to hear some creative ideas and some success stories!

I'm prob a lot older and more beat down than you, so the idea of a full 24 chan rig in two cases suggests BIG HEAVY cases to me, which is a deal breaker. Seriously--I did make this mistake a few times, and ended up having to go back to more smaller cases/racks after hurting myself (pre-gig adrenaline makes you do dumb things). I know you can move your gear on a cart, but there is the small matter of getting the stuff in and out of a car (unless you have a truck with a lift-gate) and onto the cart, and then there are the inevitable steps, patches of grass or gravel or dirt, narrow doorways etc.. If you want to stick w/yr present rig, how about some of those cases that are smaller but clip together at the gig? I would not recommend putting anything else in a case with a 24 channel mic snake (too heavy on its own) or your mic stands (they destroy anything packed with them). For a cart, I like Magliners--not cheap but last forever and have lots of accessories (like removable shelves, cable hooks etc ) avail. (Nalpak.com - Magliner Production Carts, Tripod Gear, Tools, Flashlights, Professional Gizmos) If you really work w/ exactly the same gear all the time, you might consider a more permanent cart setup, like movie mixers use. Here is a gallery of those: MobileMe Gallery (There are a few of mine in there.)

phil p

[ajcdrum]

All very true points...

I guess I'm really only looking to make this a very portable 8 channel rig - not 24. 8 is typically what I run most. If I need some more, I'll bring a backpack and throw a DAVBG1 in. I've got some new ideas about the rack... I checked out some slant top cases today and they're just huge. No way that's going to work. ATI8MX2 and HD24 in a 4 space rack is probably the way I'll go. If I have a job that I know will require more, it will probably be a higher money gig, so I don't mind lugging a couple extra cases. But I'd say 75% of my multitrack gigs are for those small jazz groups I mentioned before. I'd like to build the rig specifically for that.

But still, the other case is what I'm concerned about most. I already concluded that I'm going to make a space in the case with foam cutouts for my mics (in their mounts) instead of separate boxes like I do now. Maybe I can use the entire interior perimeter of the case for my snake to be wrapped around? My questions for you guys are:

What are some of the most collapsible mic stands you've seen?
Would investing in two clip on mics for the front line be a smart idea (2 less stands)?
Clip on for upright too perhaps?

Here's another vision:
Show up to gig. Park my rack on 2 chairs in the back. Plug in and run my snake to the stage. Throw 2 DPAs in the piano. Put up 2 mic stands with MC012s behind the drums. Pull a short stand out with my RE20 already on it for the kick. Clip a mic on the bass. Give the 2 clips on to the horn players (or fasten them to the music stands in front of them if they change out the players between songs). Keep a 57 attached to another small stand in case there's a guitarist. Check levels while they warm up. Hit Record.

That could be done in 15 minutes, right?? I just notice that biggest things that eat up my time are things like tearing down mic stands, unscrewing clips, putting mics into their individual cases. If I keep all of the above in one case (with an additional 2 mic stands and a few extra mics for spare), I should be able to set up fast and keep the weight down. Right???

Thanks

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by ajcdrum

That could be done in 15 minutes, right??

i think you are headed in the right direction but 15 minutes seems unobtainable to me.
I use a very similar setup and to set it up is usually an hour+ job under the most ideal circumstances. I prefer two hours to allow for the usual unforseen hitches. Even when I used to take out just two mics I always allowed 45 minutes after arrival to get everything ready.
As much as I dislike cheap tripod stands I had to switch over to them for weight saving. I carry a bag of 6 and several Atlas CO1B clips as standard pack.
My current rig is an ATI 8mx2, Rosetta 800 and Digi 003r in a 4 space rack. I also take a back-up recorder.
Its really all the mic deployment, cable running and dealing with the performers/house people that eats up the most time for me.

[philper]

Originally Posted by ajcdrum

All very true points...

I guess I'm really only looking to make this a very portable 8 channel rig - not 24. 8 is typically what I run most. If I need some more, I'll bring a backpack and throw a DAVBG1 in. I've got some new ideas about the rack... I checked out some slant top cases today and they're just huge. No way that's going to work. ATI8MX2 and HD24 in a 4 space rack is probably the way I'll go. If I have a job that I know will require more, it will probably be a higher money gig, so I don't mind lugging a couple extra cases. But I'd say 75% of my multitrack gigs are for those small jazz groups I mentioned before. I'd like to build the rig specifically for that.

But still, the other case is what I'm concerned about most. I already concluded that I'm going to make a space in the case with foam cutouts for my mics (in their mounts) instead of separate boxes like I do now. Maybe I can use the entire interior perimeter of the case for my snake to be wrapped around? My questions for you guys are:

What are some of the most collapsible mic stands you've seen?
Would investing in two clip on mics for the front line be a smart idea (2 less stands)?
Clip on for upright too perhaps?

Here's another vision:
Show up to gig. Park my rack on 2 chairs in the back. Plug in and run my snake to the stage. Throw 2 DPAs in the piano. Put up 2 mic stands with MC012s behind the drums. Pull a short stand out with my RE20 already on it for the kick. Clip a mic on the bass. Give the 2 clips on to the horn players (or fasten them to the music stands in front of them if they change out the players between songs). Keep a 57 attached to another small stand in case there's a guitarist. Check levels while they warm up. Hit Record.

That could be done in 15 minutes, right?? I just notice that biggest things that eat up my time are things like tearing down mic stands, unscrewing clips, putting mics into their individual cases. If I keep all of the above in one case (with an additional 2 mic stands and a few extra mics for spare), I should be able to set up fast and keep the weight down. Right???

Thanks

For an 8 channel setup you could use a Sound Devices 788T and be REALLY small, or a single rack interface/preamp and a laptop.... In any case even with that reduced package you still have the Hunt For Clean AC, and then it would be nice to LISTEN a bit re your mic positions.... Do you really only have 15 min?

phil p

[joelpatterson]

At some point it dawned on me that there are #100 fifteen minutes's in each day... not sure why it dawned on me nor what it means, really...

But over the last few days I've been evolving my portable 8 track plan: I'll build a box to house an HD24, an 8 channel Art Tubefire, 4 channel compressor, and Rolls line mixer for monitoring: six rack space dealio, with everything hardwired in place: just need to plug in mics and direct sends. And the power cable, right.

So there'll be that, and a little chunky rolling toolbox with a big handle, two or three cubic feet of space?, for the mics and cables.

There sure is a huge imperative for speed and condensedness at some of these live gigs. But-- mics already attached to the stands? That sounds like living a little too dangerously, to me.

[ajcdrum]

I literally end up recording the same musicians in the same halls night after night - just different personnel mixtures. My same DPAs in the same Steinway D in the same room sound, well, the same! The front line is the thing that switches the most, so being able to handle a good amount of different situations is key. But in each hall I work in I have go-to positions for particular instruments that make line checking pretty easy.

I just say fifteen minutes because I would love to not be the last one in the room every night. I get home from work around 7 and most recitals are at 8:30. I'd to love to walk over in 10 minutes, set up, grab a bite to eat and come back and hit record. Then I need to be up at 7:30 to go to work again so I'd prefer to not be there all night.

I don't think I'd be that weary of my mics on stands. I'm thinking complete foam cutouts for them, stand and all. RE20s and 57s are pretty durable mics. They'd sit in the case like babies tucked in for bed. Plus I can finally start taking advantage of people asking if I need any help. I can say sure, coil these cables or put that mic and stand in the case in the custom space designed for it. It won't fit anywhere else. This would be a nice break from "my system" that needs to happen in a certain order or else it won't fit in my duffel bag (basically turning away all help)...

[marvin100]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

At some point it dawned on me that there are #100 fifteen minutes's in each day...

Wait, which time zone has 25-hour days?

[Murton]

I have thought about this problem a fair bit as due to my vision I'm jsut unable to get a drivers license.

My aimw as to build a 24 channel rig that I would be able to put in the back of a taxi, bus or train.

I have a small folding 90kg capacity trolley and a bigger stair climber trolley depending on how much stuff I need to take.

My main rack is a 6U mixer rack with an LS9-16, M-Audio ProFire 2626, Apogee Big Ben, Power Conditioner.

I tried to minimize the number of stands by using drum mic clips, Stage Ninja Scorpions for guitar cabs, kick, snare even toms with t bars. Running overheads on a quad stereo bar for XY/AB.

So I have a 6U rack on the trolley, a brief case of mics, sports bag for leads with stands sitting on the top of the sports bag under the handle. Backpack with laptop for the recorder. It's a big load but doable just on public transport

The alternative is the big trolley, the 6U mixer rack and a 5U rack with a rack mount PC and another 2626. Stands are strapped to the back of the trolley, mic case on the top of the racks. Sports bag with leads and backpack with laptop to remote desktop in to use it as a monitor. Usually only use this configuration on gigs requiring more stable recording means and larger track counts and the laptop also does a backup recording from the second 2626.

The key is to keep the cases managable by one person. the trolley helps loads and means less dead lifting long distances.
Try and reduce the number of stands you will need by using mic clips and such and extensive uses of stereo bars for toms, overheads etc.

The more use of 8 channel single unit pres the better. JoeCoe blackbox will also save on weight and save compared to the HD24.

Snakes are the biggest challenge. We have found success using small/medium travel bags, one's with telescoping handles and wheels. You can also chuck other cables in with it.

[Rick Sutton]

Best thing I ever bought for my remote rig!

Clipper Products 2-Wheel Super Clipper Cart with 400 Pound Capacity & 6 Inch Wheels Hand Truck, Dolly, Production at Markertek.com

[Roland]

The thing that will always stuff you, is that there is no such thing as a standard job. Every time you turn up and they have one extra vocalist, an extra horn, or someone with two keyboards, and "by the way he just happens to have stuff that is played back from a computer", you need something else.

The truth is, that although you can make a recording rig small and simple (i.e. HD24, 3 x whoever 8 channel mic pre's), this is the easy bit. Multicores, splits, mains, mic's, stands, DI boxes, monitors, leads are all the boring stuff that actually makes the recording possible. Leads are always going to add weight, as are a decent collection of mic stands. I would make sure that nothing is more than a comfortable two man lift and break it down to 6-8 cases. If you know ahead of time exactly what you need you should be able to take the minimum with a couple of spares. Load in's and load out's are when most of us wish we played the piccolo!

Roland

[leddy]

I am currently using two R44's for up to 8 channels. That's about as small as you can get. I understand you can even get a "y" cable from the master unit and run a third R44 (2nd slave) for 12 channels.

The quality is decent and you can run on batteries. To upgrade would likely mean going to the Sound Devices, Nagra, etc. Several times the cost.

[NorseHorse]

Any eight-channel recorder (or two-four channel recorders) + a nice eight channel preamp. Definitely doable in 2ish-RU. As Roland pointed out, it all the accoutrements that get you (mics, stands, cables, splitters, etc).

Post pictures of your portable recording equipment

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by ajcdrum

... Plus I can finally start taking advantage of people asking if I need any help. I can say sure, ....

Ah, faith!

Anytime I say "sure" and it looks like the simplest possible thing, they start dismantling the shock mounts on me!






Memo for record: the scientists among us will note that yes, technically there are only 96 fifteen minutes's in one twenty-four hour day. To say that there are "100" is inexact!

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Memo for record: the scientists among us will note that yes, technically there are only 96 fifteen minutes's in one twenty-four hour day. To say that there are "100" is inexact!

Somedays it feels like a 100.

[Remoteness]

Man, I have calculated 128 fifteen minutes in a day...

I keep forgetting that a day is around 24 hours, not 32.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Remoteness

... I keep forgetting that a day is around 24 hours, not 32.

Well, that's the danger of spending time on so many different planets, naturally you'd get confused!

[Remoteness]

Clearly

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Well, that's the danger of spending time on so many different planets, naturally you'd get confused!

[Corran]

Originally Posted by Roland

Load in's and load out's are when most of us wish we played the piccolo!

Roland

And it really sucks when I finish a concert, pack up my piccolo, and THEN have to pack up all the recording gear AS WELL.

[joelpatterson]

Man... all the science fiction novels I soaked up as a kid were just chock full of this "zipping around throughout the Universe" even though plot-wise they were Westerns, pretty much-- good guys, bad guys, evil plots needing foiling-- and the variety was really refreshing: worlds with two suns, multiple moons and their shadows, the strange customs of the interstellar natives... fortunately there were instantaneous translation devices so everyone could speak English... whatever happened to all that?

[NorseHorse]

Budget cuts.

[uncle duncan]

Stupid noob question, I know, but...

I'm supposed to record a 6-piece country rock band Saturday evening, using only 8 channels. It's audio to supplement a video shoot - not synced. They're only looking to snag one or two songs out of the set for a video clip. It's an outdoor gig with full sound reinforcement. After routing the board mix to two channels (or one if it's mono) I thought I'd choose the elements that aren't present enough in the mix - like keyboards, and the lead vocal - and get them via the channel insert jacks. I also thought kick and snare might be nice, but these FOH dudes usually have those cranked in the mix.

Any suggestions from you old pros who do this all the time (with 24 channels, no doubt.?)

[Murton]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Stupid noob question, I know, but...

I'm supposed to record a 6-piece country rock band Saturday evening, using only 8 channels. It's audio to supplement a video shoot - not synced. They're only looking to snag one or two songs out of the set for a video clip. It's an outdoor gig with full sound reinforcement. After routing the board mix to two channels (or one if it's mono) I thought I'd choose the elements that aren't present enough in the mix - like keyboards, and the lead vocal - and get them via the channel insert jacks. I also thought kick and snare might be nice, but these FOH dudes usually have those cranked in the mix.

Any suggestions from you old pros who do this all the time (with 24 channels, no doubt.?)

I'll give a suggestion from a young spring chicken who has only been doing this for two years

Take the live stereo mix
Kick
Single mono overhead
Lead vocal
Mono keyboards - summed
GTR L
GTR R

Sub out guitars if there are any out of the normal instruments like banjo.
The live two track should be rich with the lead vocal, kick and snare and any line sources. I would aim to record the sources which at small gigs wouldn't be miced, like guitars and to have the ability to pull a mix without the live two track.

Another approach is to sub mix drums and vocals and guitars/bass/keys and the live two track.

Most of my live two tracks lack guitars and overheads and maybe bass guitar. Vocals and drums are usually fine, same with line sources.