Making horns sound big!

[BenJah]

I'm currently tracking and mixing a ska band. I recently completed tracking the horns but they sound kinda gay. To be specific, they sound small. This is mainly due to the playing been weak. There are only two, one trumpet and one sax. Does anyone have any tips for making a the horn section sound big?
I'm mixing itb and am using protools.
Thanks.

[Disco D]

i do this with sampled or cheesy horns or basically clean horns cuz they suck:

smash teh **** out of them with ren comp and then ether run sansamp, ampfarm or amplitude on an aux, reverb with mondo mod for space and a bandpass filter on one aux, and delay with mondo mod and bandpass filter on another and season to taste.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

getting them to lay down a few more layers couldn't hurt either...

trumpet+sax....hrmph....probably an alto they've had since high school at that....ug...

beat them with a stick if they can't play their parts...
and then compress the crap outta them....
you could try a re-amp..what the hell..

and for the love of god stay away from flange/chorus efx...
maybe a spring reverb overdriven...?
you want em to burn no?

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by BenJah

I'm currently tracking and mixing a ska band. I recently completed tracking the horns but they sound kinda gay. To be specific, they sound small. This is mainly due to the playing been weak. There are only two, one trumpet and one sax. Does anyone have any tips for making a the horn section sound big?
I'm mixing itb and am using protools.
Thanks.

If it's mostly due to the playing being weak, suggest that they ought to practice for half an hour & try it again, this time with more power.

Other than that, compression & a good short room reverb can give the illusion of 'louder'.

And please don't use the word 'gay' to mean 'not good'. It's not cool to use a word that describes a minority to mean something derogatory. Besides, it doesn't make sense. That's like saying a drummer sounded way too straight because the playing was boring, predictable, and clumsy. Oh wait, maybe THAT makes sense ;-)

OK, off my soapbox. Now I'm crossing my fingers that this doesn't turn into a thread about anti-gay bigotry vs. equal rights.

Dave Peck

[FunkFaker]

what type of mics are you using?

I tend to use dynamics that I can push really hard. A little natural compression of the mics and mic pres goes a long way!

have fun,

Tommy

[John The Cut]

Originally Posted by Dave Peck

If it's mostly due to the playing being weak, suggest that they ought to practice for half an hour & try it again, this time with more power.

Other than that, compression & a good short room reverb can give the illusion of 'louder'.

And please don't use the word 'gay' to mean 'not good'. It's not cool to use a word that describes a minority to mean something derogatory. Besides, it doesn't make sense. That's like saying a drummer sounded way too straight because the playing was boring, predictable, and clumsy. Oh wait, maybe THAT makes sense ;-)

OK, off my soapbox. Now I'm crossing my fingers that this doesn't turn into a thread about anti-gay bigotry vs. equal rights.

Dave Peck

Gay as in 'not good' is the best nu-use of the word gay, imo - I instantly knew what Benjah meant when he said it - things just sound... gay!

And Dave (from SanFran ), Gays dont have exclusivity on a word they nicked from somewhere else. In UK parlance gay has a number of meanings, some of which have nothign to do with being homesexual.

back OT,

Dunno .. nothing beats a good performance But why not try layering what you have with some samples to pad it out a bit?

[XHipHop]

What kind of ska band are we talking about, by the way?

Skatalites? The Slackers? Hepcat?

or ska/punk like Catch 22/or 100 different Cali bands?

[Jason Poulin]

two mono tracks,

pan one right and other left to taste.

pitch shift between -4 to -10 cents on one side and +4 to +10 cents on the other

it may just do the job!

Jason

[bunnerabb]

The cure for twee horns is, IMHO, smash the piss out of them, get multiple tracks for flava and a bit of Mom's Big Ass Verb for space.

Then parallel them muthas and hit it, again.

WHAP!

YMMV
Close Cover Before Striking
Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.
Does not include title, destination, dealer prep or taxes.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

The cure for twee horns is, IMHO, smash the piss out of them, get multiple tracks for flava and a bit of Mom's Big Ass Verb for space.

Then parallel them muthas and hit it, again.

WHAP!

YMMV
Close Cover Before Striking
Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.
Does not include title, destination, dealer prep or taxes.

I agree with this post, in general...but it's important to figure out what kind of ska music it is. If it's traditional ska where the horns have to sound jazzy or like calypso they need to be treated differently than if it is distorted guitar/punk rock ska with horns that sound more like they are part of a marching band.

[jebjerome]

I propose that you continue to use the word "gaye" to describe things that you find to be ********, but with the additional 'e' so as to not offend, by differentiating between those and the more common homosexual usage("gay").

Also, the extra 'e' makes it gaye-er.

[bunnerabb]

But that's a dis to Marvin!

You can't dis Marvin. man.

How about "Ghey" or just .. "Twee"?

In a pinch, if all the pseudopoliticisation of language starts to get on your tits, we could just say "Weak".

[bunnerabb]

That's a dis to Marvin!

You can't dis Marvin, man!

How about just "Ghey" or "Twee"?

In a pinch, if you're tired of all the pseudopoliticsation of language, you could just call it "weak".

[r0ck1r0ck2]

how bout gae...?
maybe gAE
as in "Lets gAE out!"

[jebjerome]

Didn't think about the potential Marvin Gaye confusion. This will have to go back to committee.

[smarsland]

that was amusing!

[Rand0mRoll77]

There's this hip hop producer named "Kno" who I am really into, he is in this group called CunninLynguists...I love the horns on one of the beats on their new album...I know he works with Fruity Loops, Adobe Audition, and Samples...How do you think he made these horns??

http://www.rossfphoto.com/music/06-c...irlsnippet.mp3

What do you think of them?

[joeq]

Originally Posted by BenJah

Does anyone have any tips for making a the horn section sound big?
I'm mixing itb and am using protools.
Thanks.

too late now, but next time - Room Mics

[Nestor Z.]

Originally Posted by BenJah

I'm currently tracking and mixing a ska band. I recently completed tracking the horns but they sound kinda gay. To be specific, they sound small. This is mainly due to the playing been weak. There are only two, one trumpet and one sax. Does anyone have any tips for making a the horn section sound big?
I'm mixing itb and am using protools.
Thanks.

BenJah,

What mics are you using???

You would be surprised how much bigger the section would sound if you were able to find and record a trombone player...

If the players are that bad you definately need to record them one at a time...

Record the strongest player first and have lots of patience...Pay special attention to intonation, timing, and releases...Doubling parts is a must for everyone...If the player cannot harmonize his lines, have him record in unison only spliting the harmony on hits and ends of phrases (I am talking about 1 player at a time here)...This gives more body to the sound...Octaves that are perfectly in tune make a huge difference as well...

Once your done with the first guy it should be much easier for the second guy to come in and follow...

You gotta be picky and patient...Don't be afraid to edit where you could get away with it...Especially with weak players playing parts that repeat themselves...

Get ready to edit the crap out of them if they are that bad...

Lots of reverb and little compression will help...

Good luck,

Nestor Z.

[BenJah]

Originally Posted by XHipHop

What kind of ska band are we talking about, by the way?

Skatalites? The Slackers? Hepcat?

or ska/punk like Catch 22/or 100 different Cali bands?

Kewl. A fellow ska lover.

Going for a kinda mix between the specials and real big fish horn sounds if thats any help.

So many suggestions. Thanks so much you guys!

[RKrizman]

Use a ribbon mic on the trumpet. Try a large diaphragm dynamic on the sax, like an RE-20. Or a good, vibey LD condenser (U-67? etc).

-R

[BenJah]

Oh and I used a tlm 103 for the sax and a audix i5 for the trumpet. I gonna play around with some compression and some distortion.
Yer.. ah..the gay thing. Whats weird is that Justin Timberlake is not gay but he's "gay".While Freddy Mercury was gay but he was definately not "gay".
Food for thought...

[raal]

Originally Posted by joeq

too late now, but next time - Room Mics

was just gonna say that, or get some room in there with omni or figure 8. of course mic selection helps too.

[jdunn]

Of course you could play the horn tracks through a pair of speakers and mic it....... in stereo. There's your 'post production' room mics. If you do it in a nice live studio room it will sound pretty authentic.

But I usually mix the room mics fairly low in relation to the horns, just enough to give them a little extra punch. So some of the above suggestions for fattening them up will probably be necessary too.

[Dave Peck]

Originally Posted by BenJah

Whats weird is that Justin Timberlake is not gay but he's "gay".While Freddy Mercury was gay but he was definately not "gay".

NOW we're making some sense. It's all in the proper use of the quotation marks! Rob Halford of Judas Priest - gay but not "gay". Which is different from, for example, Stryper or Dokken - "gay" but not gay. Andy Bell of Erasure - gay AND "gay". Did I get that right? OK back to the question about the horn section - if the room sounds decent, try using omni mics.

Dave Peck

[Samc]

Forget about the "what mic" and the "how much compression" you should be using answers, if you want a big brass sound the most important thing is to have a brass section that can play big. I've spent the last 26 years producing and/or engineering a lot of Ska (including The Skatalites) and Reggae in their various forms. The basic section is usually Sax, T-pet and Bone, but sections come in all sizes and configurations. I've worked with a ten piece section, and also made records with only two players (recently in Jamaica; Sax and Bone and England and France, Sax and Trumpet) and in almost every case, it's a given, that each horn player will play multiple harmony parts sometimes using different instruments. In all situations the musicians were top notch, and they played their parts until they got it right.

The last Skatalites album I made, a live CD that was recorded at "Ancient Belgique" in Belgium, the four piece horn section was recorded with Shure SM 58's. Every write-up the record got mentioned how great the horns sounded, so....there goes that myth. I'm not saying you shouldn't use the best microphones/gear you can get your hands on, but incessant stressing on the brand, model and type of microphone has gotten to be more than just a little ridiculous to say the least.

It seems that compressing stuff to death is the easy answer to everything in this neck of the woods. however, in my experience, anything more than light compression is generally not the hot ticket except when I'm working with inexperienced players who don't have control. This is not a religious or holy grail thing, it's just that the really experienced/good players hate it because it's very easy to kill their groove by taking out the subtle dynamic stuff they are sometimes playing, and they generally have such great control anyway. The playing style, (which adds greatly to the feeling of 'bigness'), is more about feeling right than being 100% correct. What I mean is, unlike Calypso or Salsa, where it is very important that the section be extremely tight and correct, In Ska generally, the 'groovyness' of the section is more important. While everyone is reading from the same score, everybody has their own interpretation, so that ultra tight, sameness that you might get by heavily compressing the buss is also a no no.

If I'm using spot mics, I'm only using spot mics, and if I'm using room mics, I'm only using room mics. Good room, good players, two or three well placed microphones, and we're good to go. I only do the room mic thing with experienced players and I don't use spot mics in this situation, too many mics and you risk phase problems (big doesn't mean dull and phasey). This also helps to keeps the players in the same acoustic space.

A couple of other points; the players should play together, the suggestion that the better player should play first is......well, not very good advise. There will be no groove, and it will suck as badly as hearing a bad drummer chasing a click, among other things. In my experience having them play without headphones can also be a good thing, this helps them vibe off of each other more and can also help them to control their tone better. Playing live with the band would be the ultimate, but if that's not possible, just set up some monitors in the live room.

To really thicken things out they will need to play some harmony parts to the original melody that was laid down. REAL HARMONIES, NOT JUST DOUBLING THE PARTS. So somebody better know what they're doing here. By the time you get to the mix stage you should already know where you are going. What I mean is, you should have been checking your takes against the rest of the tracks as you go along to get an idea of what's working and what's not; level, tone, pan etc. Oh yeah, the pan-pot is your friend, don't be afraid to use it. DO NOT go crazy with the reverb, or the horns will loose punch, a little reverb and delay on the buss can go a far way without mucking things up.

BIG SOUND COMES FROM BIG PERFORMANCES and if the musicians are not doing their part I don't care what you do, and how you do it, chances are it isn't gonna happen. So get your two horn players to practice/lay tracks until they get it right.

[XHipHop]

Originally Posted by BenJah

Kewl. A fellow ska lover.

Going for a kinda mix between the specials and real big fish horn sounds if thats any help.

So many suggestions. Thanks so much you guys!

The specials had Rico Rodriguez playing BADASS trombone...so scratch that..

Samc is right, it is all about the performance.

If they aren't the best players, you are going to be doing the song piece by piece, and at times, note by note. Get ready to punch in a lot and get every note strong.

Reel Big Fish has that in your face blaring marching band sound (which is not my cup of tea) but make sure the trumpet is really playing balls out.

[audioboy]

Originally Posted by BenJah

I'm currently tracking and mixing a ska band. I recently completed tracking the horns but they sound kinda gay. To be specific, they sound small. This is mainly due to the playing been weak. There are only two, one trumpet and one sax. Does anyone have any tips for making a the horn section sound big?
I'm mixing itb and am using protools.
Thanks.

My suggestion, double your horn section with MIDI sound because the blend is good : Human touch & the 'stiff' MIDI horn. I do it with string section too. But be sure that you use decent horn sound (like some good VST)

[dave-G]

Great points in SamC's post

I'd only add 2 things

1. Back the f**k up with the mics. The closer you get, the more spitty and brittle, while a few feet further away, and things start to smooth themselves out without needing to "compress the piss" out of them as a corrective measure ...

2. The proper spelling for this usage of the word is "ghey".

-dave

[area51recording]

I totally agree with the concept that says, like the guy in Chariots of Fire, "you can't put in what God's left out" It'd be like recording some tippy tap wimpy drummer and expecting to get Bonham-like results at mixdown just from the proper prcessing. If the players don't have balls when they play the parts it's really hard to get them to sound like they have a pair. Also as a horn player myself I can tell you that just like with a vocalist the headphone mix while tracking is critical. Too little of yourself in the cans and you can't maintain intonation, too much and you don't go for it and tend to hold back, helping to get a small sounding result. In situations like this in the past I've tried jumping thru hoops with compression etc. and after pulling out most of my hair opt for retracking while directing the players involved to lay into it harder.