Making horns sound big!

[lukejs]

"If the players don't have balls when they play the parts it's really hard to get them to sound like they have a pair. "

this taken from the above post.... I think this answers some questions about the G word´s usage in the original post !!!

[area51recording]

Well....you know, not meaning that in the anatomical sense. I've recorded and gigged with some trumpet players of the female persuasion who could knock a wall down when they really cut loose....

[TML]

the problem is... horns don't belong in rock music.....

[area51recording]

I agree... The Stones "Brown Sugar" would have kicked so much more ass w/out the lame sax solo....
PS just one of about a billion examples....

[Nestor Z.]

Originally Posted by Samc

A couple of other points; the players should play together, the suggestion that the better player should play first is......well, not very good advise. There will be no groove, and it will suck as badly as hearing a bad drummer chasing a click, among other things. In my experience having them play without headphones can also be a good thing, this helps them vibe off of each other more and can also help them to control their tone better. Playing live with the band would be the ultimate, but if that's not possible, just set up some monitors in the live room.

.

The main reason for my recommendation for recording one player at a time is because he mentioned that the players are weak.

How weak are they???

Sounded to me like they are pretty bad if not he would not be so frustrated…

I guess we would have to hear them...

It is way too time consuming and grueling especially for the trumpet player to play take, after take, after take, etc...It becomes very frustrating and sloppy...Loosing the groove anyways...

If recorded right, with a good producer/engineer directing them, recording one brass player one track at a time will not suck…You just need a good set of ears on the other side of the glass…Too many great recordings are done both ways…Saying that it will suck is simply an opinion…

There are way more Haitian recordings here in Miami than Ska but they too have a sound similar to Ska and track all the horns live…Trumpet, Bone, and Sax…If the trumpet misses a line more than say 4-5 times the sax player and I will record the line by our selves making it easier for the trumpet to fall in line after us easier…Vice versa too..It is simply more efficient that way for us…Does not take away from the groove at all…

Whatever works...

Another reason for my suggestion for one at a time is because there were no specifics in the quality/size of the room being used...

Your post is very detailed and full of good advice coming from an obviously knowledgeable person...

I respect that...Really I do...

I agree that for this style it is better to record everyone together in a nice sounding room, but the original post steered me to find the most efficient solution in this situation as a professional brass player that I am…

Business as usual…

Take care,

Nestor Z.

BTW, I record mostly styles like Pop, Salsa, Spanish Rock, Haitian, and Reggaeton. Occasionally I do some Ska and big band hits…The only time I do not record solo one track at a time is in Ska, Haitian, and Big Band…

[jdunn]

Originally Posted by TML

the problem is... horns don't belong in rock music.....

Check out 'Spanish Moon' by Little Feat. The live version on 'Waiting for Columbus'. The new remaster is great BTW.

[aintnosunshine]

Originally Posted by Dave Peck

And please don't use the word 'gay' to mean 'not good'. It's not cool to use a word that describes a minority to mean something derogatory. Besides, it doesn't make sense. That's like saying a drummer sounded way too straight because the playing was boring, predictable, and clumsy. Oh wait, maybe THAT makes sense ;-)

OK, off my soapbox. Now I'm crossing my fingers that this doesn't turn into a thread about anti-gay bigotry vs. equal rights.

Too late! Funny thing is... I used to know some gay folks who used the word 'gay' to mean exactly that all the time. They'd also call each other 'fag' as an insult, to mean 'really girly'. It was all in jest however.

[bunnerabb]

Originally Posted by area51recording

The Stones "Brown Sugar" would have kicked so much more ass w/out the lame sax solo....

I can't even wrap head around that.

I'd kill for a decent horn section.

Can you imagine "Us And Them" from "Dark Side of the Moon" with no sax solo?

Jr. Walker and the All Stars "What Does It Take To Win Your Love"?

"The Royal Scam" from Steely Dan, with no horns?

"Meeting Across The River" by Bruce Springsteen without that ethereal trumpet?

"Bitch" by the Rollng Stones with no horn section?


Sheeez.

[Samc]

Originally Posted by Nestor Z.

The main reason for my recommendation for recording one player at a time is because he mentioned that the players are weak.

How weak are they???

Sounded to me like they are pretty bad if not he would not be so frustrated…

I guess we would have to hear them...

It is way too time consuming and grueling especially for the trumpet player to play take, after take, after take, etc...It becomes very frustrating and sloppy...Loosing the groove anyways...

If recorded right, with a good producer/engineer directing them, recording one brass player one track at a time will not suck…You just need a good set of ears on the other side of the glass…Too many great recordings are done both ways…Saying that it will suck is simply an opinion…

There are way more Haitian recordings here in Miami than Ska but they too have a sound similar to Ska and track all the horns live…Trumpet, Bone, and Sax…If the trumpet misses a line more than say 4-5 times the sax player and I will record the line by our selves making it easier for the trumpet to fall in line after us easier…Vice versa too..It is simply more efficient that way for us…Does not take away from the groove at all…

Whatever works...

Another reason for my suggestion for one at a time is because there were no specifics in the quality/size of the room being used...

Your post is very detailed and full of good advice coming from an obviously knowledgeable person...

I respect that...Really I do...

I agree that for this style it is better to record everyone together in a nice sounding room, but the original post steered me to find the most efficient solution in this situation as a professional brass player that I am…

Business as usual…

Take care,

Nestor Z.

BTW, I record mostly styles like Pop, Salsa, Spanish Rock, Haitian, and Reggaeton. Occasionally I do some Ska and big band hits…The only time I do not record solo one track at a time is in Ska, Haitian, and Big Band…

I think I'm going to agree to agree with you, sorry, I think I may have been a little too general and flip with my comments.

I don't know how bad these particular players are, but I do know that if they are below a certain level, then no advise we give (beyond telling them to practice) will help in the short term.

Even though I've had very good results recording players individually, and regardless of how good/bad the players are, I've always found that I get better results, (especially from a groove/feel standpoint) when the section plays together. In fact, all the older, more experienced session players I have worked with prefer to work this way especially when working with inexperienced players, or with someone who's just having an off day. Some of these guys (who were playing sessions before it was possible to do overdubs), can usually carry that person with their playing.

I would like to ask all the folks talking about players with "balls". You guys are not talking about playing loud are you? Good players don't need to play loudly, and usually don't. THEY PLAY WITH CONTROL, control over tone and dynamics. This seems to hold true in other genres as well, I've worked with Femi Kuti, Buena Vista Social Club, Afro Cuban All Stars, Jazz Jamaica and a bunch of other horn centric groups in other genres, and it's always been the same; great players play with CONTROL and don't always sound like a marching band.

Nestor Z, I saw your other thread about getting a microphone, may I suggest a modern classic, try a Brauner Velvet or Phantom on any horn and I'm amost sure it will make you smile.

[area51recording]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

I can't even wrap head around that.

I'd kill for a decent horn section.

Can you imagine "Us And Them" from "Dark Side of the Moon" with no sax solo?

Jr. Walker and the All Stars "What Does It Take To Win Your Love"?

"The Royal Scam" from Steely Dan, with no horns?

"Meeting Across The River" by Bruce Springsteen without that ethereal trumpet?

"Bitch" by the Rollng Stones with no horn section?


Sheeez.

Dude....... I was being MEGA sarcastic. I'm a horn player fer Christ's sake.....

[mitgong]

Here's something. In a lot of today's "young man's punk ska" the tiny little horns are playing their tiny little lines in unison instead of harmonizing them. This is one of the reasons they often sound like bad high school marching bands. A harmony line will always sound a little bigger. Teach them what "harmony" means and have them add a line. And for god's sake, tell the alto to switch to tenor.

[area51recording]

The tenor thing is a good call. Trumpet and alto pretty much occupy the same register. Should sound thcker/fuller with a tenor sax part.

[bunnerabb]

Originally Posted by area51recording

Dude....... I was being MEGA sarcastic. I'm a horn player fer Christ's sake.....

And that one went over at about 30,000 feet.

Touchdown!

[20to20]

Marvin actually changed the spelling of his name
from "Gay" to "Gaye" to avoid potential stigma...

How gaye is that...?

BP
20to20