Better mics for acoustic guitar

[elladoizquierdo]

Hi,
I use to record acoustic guitars in stereo (one mic at the bridge one at the neck) with my stereo Neumann km184 pair and had been satisfied so far with the results but I don´t like very much the high mid rise the mics have for this app and I would prefer a more smooth mid high responce in my pair. I get good results on darker sounding guitars like vintage gibsons or martins with old strings, but not so goog on modern sounding (thin) guitars. For acoustic guitars I also have AEA R84 pair (too big and dark), Sehn 421 pair (just ok), Studio proyects C1 pair (too thin), one Neumann U87 (cool but mono)..., so I would like to invest in the best possible stereo acoustic guitar mics for my taste.
I am more in search for a natural/smooth/vintage acoustic sound than for a modern bright one.
I have an other problem. With every condenser cardioid pair I have tried (U67´s, Shoeps MK4, U87´s and my own KM184´s) I have allways to cut the lows (usually hi-pass at 80hrzs and -2/3db with a low shelf at 100/15hrz) on the strummed rithm parts due to the proximity efect of the mics at the distances I choose (aprox 20cm from the bridge, 20 cm from the 12th fret), so this time I´m thinking in getting a Shoeps pair but in the wide cardioid pattern (something between omni and card) that I think would have a more natural bottom (less prox. fx) and not need the EQ adjustment. I also like the fact that the Shoeps (at least the MK4´s I have recorded with many times in other studios) are very sweet in the high mid area where I don´t like my km184´s. Do you think I would get that more balanced sound I´m after: More controled bottom/sweet mid highs with that wide cardioid Shoeps pair?

Any experiences to share?

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by elladoizquierdo

Hi,
I use to record acoustic guitars in stereo (one mic at the bridge one at the neck) with my stereo Neumann km184 pair and had been satisfied so far with the results but I don´t like very much the high mid rise the mics have for this app and I would prefer a more smooth mid high responce in my pair. I get good results on darker sounding guitars like vintage gibsons or martins with old strings, but not so goog on modern sounding (thin) guitars. For acoustic guitars I also have AEA R84 pair (too big and dark), Sehn 421 pair (just ok), Studio proyects C1 pair (too thin), one Neumann U87 (cool but mono)..., so I would like to invest in the best possible stereo acoustic guitar mics for my taste.
I am more in search for a natural/smooth/vintage acoustic sound than for a modern bright one.
I have an other problem. With every condenser cardioid pair I have tried (U67´s, Shoeps MK4, U87´s and my own KM184´s) I have allways to cut the lows (usually hi-pass at 80hrzs and -2/3db with a low shelf at 100/15hrz) on the strummed rithm parts due to the proximity efect of the mics at the distances I choose (aprox 20cm from the bridge, 20 cm from the 12th fret), so this time I´m thinking in getting a Shoeps pair but in the wide cardioid pattern (something between omni and card) that I think would have a more natural bottom (less prox. fx) and not need the EQ adjustment. I also like the fact that the Shoeps (at least the MK4´s I have recorded with many times in other studios) are very sweet in the high mid area where I don´t like my km184´s. Do you think I would get that more balanced sound I´m after: More controled bottom/sweet mid highs with that wide cardioid Shoeps pair?

Any experiences to share?

it is really hard to say when not being there. but telling from what you have access to (u67, u87, schoeps) im afraid that the fault is not the mics. they are all perfectly capable of capturing a great acoustic guitar performance. so its either your placement or the rest of the chain (do you have the same problem with other recordings) - or your room? certainly not a mic problem!

[DanDan]

The MBHO K200 Capsule is excellent. Use the transformerless preamp 604 I think for the clearest sound. Use the much cheaper 648 I think, traffo/FET preamp for that old KM84 vintage sound.
DD

[salomonander]

Originally Posted by DanDan

The MBHO K200 Capsule is excellent. Use the transformerless preamp 604 I think for the clearest sound. Use the much cheaper 648 I think, traffo/FET preamp for that old KM84 vintage sound.
DD

how could a km84 give you a vintage sound a km54 will....

[rickrock305]

my personal favorite is a pair of KM84s

87s and 414s are cool as well, but i don't think they're gonna give you what you're looking for.

[seanmccoy]

If you like the sound of a close-miked guitar but don't like the proximity effect, omni may be your friend. Also keep in mind that it isn't necessary to use a matched pair for a stereo acoustic. It isn't uncommon to pair an SDC with an LDC.

[jnorman]

you might consider a pair of good near field omnis, like the km131s or schoeps cmc6/mk2's. or even the new DPA 4091s. otherwise, i would think the mics you have are quite excellent, and perhaps more experimentation with placement (off-axis, different distances, etc) might be equally effective as changing mics...

[mbrebes]

I also use omni on acoustics. Can pull the mic in close with no proximity effect and is much more forgiving with mic placement.

[elladoizquierdo]

Originally Posted by salomonander

it is really hard to say when not being there. but telling from what you have access to (u67, u87, schoeps) im afraid that the fault is not the mics. they are all perfectly capable of capturing a great acoustic guitar performance. so its either your placement or the rest of the chain (do you have the same problem with other recordings) - or your room? certainly not a mic problem!

Maybe I haven´t explained myself well.
I don´t own any U67´s, Shoeps MK4´s or U87´s (just one wich means mono) etc...but I have worked with all of them in other studios with good results and know the sound of them. The only condensor pair I own are the KM184´s (NOT KM84´S), so as I said I´m in search of a better pair for the task than the km´s, not that I own any of the mentioned.

[DanDan]

I have tested the KM184 vs KM84 vs MBHO 604/K200, on a Martin acoustic guitar.

The sweetest was the KM84, but the MBHO was a very close second, just a little clearer.

PM me if you would like the audio files.

DD

[Albert L.]

Best mic I've ever use for acoustic guitars is the KM-69, second to that is the KM-84. Some where after that are a slew of Gefells and an old school 451 with a ck-5 capsule.

[rickrock305]

Originally Posted by elladoizquierdo

Maybe I haven´t explained myself well.
I don´t own any U67´s, Shoeps MK4´s or U87´s (just one wich means mono) etc...but I have worked with all of them in other studios with good results and know the sound of them. The only condensor pair I own are the KM184´s (NOT KM84´S), so as I said I´m in search of a better pair for the task than the km´s, not that I own any of the mentioned.

while not having personally compared, I hear there's a pretty big difference between KM184s, and KM84s.

As others have said, the combination of KM84 and an LDC is nice as well. I like the KM84/U87 combo. Or the KM84/U47 combo is nice too.

[NathanEldred]

CMC6 Mkx capsule Schoeps are my favorite, followed by DPA 40xx TL series (as I've been saying forever here). Schoeps are a little more flattering than the DPAs (which are VERY neutral), but the Schoeps are still very accurate overall with no unnatural or intentional rise (unless you buy a specific capsule that has that the rise....Mk4, Mk2, Mk21, etc are all basically flat).

There is a really good comparison here on acoustic guitar (picking and strumming) that has something like 13 well known small diaphragms, I find the recordings to be on the same page as what I've found these mics to sound like also:

Small Condenser Mic Comparison

[DanDan]

I really do not work for MBHO. But I do love to support the little guy. Particularly if it is a German mic manufacturer with history, still run by literally the little guy.
MBHO seems to be Mr. Haun. He seems to have been involved with Schoeps.
There are very strong cosmetic similarities in the capsules' appearance.
MBHO/Haun are badged as the high end Audix condensers. Also I think they supply caps to Soundeluxe and others.
DD

[vernier]

Seems you already got it covered, mic wise.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by elladoizquierdo

Any experiences to share?

A pair of Microtech Gefell UM70S/MV692 is a "game changer" kind of upgrade for your request.

[whatsprotools]

I'm surprised so many people are suggesting solely condensers.

The thing that I've been lovin' for a while is a pair of ribbons (usually Royer 121's) in blumlein, pretty much right in front of the hole.

Smooths things out, warms things up. Deals w/ string/fret/pick noise really well, and allows you to really dial in the appropriate amount of brightness.
Sounds amazing.

[chrisjones]

Earthworks SR30... Great for acoustic guitar!

[GuySonic]

I have a few customers that own and like the stereo ribbons for smooth guitar recorded sound. Most of these like my brand of stereo-surround mics a bit better for having detail and imaging ability not found with the ribbons.
An example of guitar recordings and other instruments recorded with a baffled omni mic array having 10-to +40,000Hz BW found throughout these two pages:
Session and Live Performance Recordings
Ambient Composer, Nature Sounds, Musicology Recordings

[tubeaudiofan]

I like [and use] C-12's, KM-56s, U-47's, Schoeps 221's, etc on Ac Gtr all the time, but try a SE/Neve RNR-1, it sounds great,warm and still sparkly. Never really liked km184's on ac gtr. or much. Schoeps are a much better mic. The R84 could sound cool on the bridge with sdc on the neck...

From your description, maybe you should try another ac. gtr? Love old Gibsons [Hummers, C&W, J45's, etc.] for their warmth & tone, they blend with modern bright gtrs [taylor/martin/etc ] really well [if that is needed], sort of the opposite sound. You seem like you have many mic's that would work, maybe the source should be swapped? Just a thought. Also what pre's, any comp/eq? Pultecs EQP's or Lang PEQ-1's for eq, and 1176's/la2a's/2054's/Manley V-Mu/Portico II all work...WELL! Placement is important [critical if you are close]... Strings and Pick [if used] also can be a big deal...

Good luck!

[tmcconnell]

I use a pair of schoeps wide card (mk21) for acoustic. best sounds I have ever acquired from an acoustic. However, this comes with warnings.

1) stereo acoustic is not always what's needed in a big mix. When the guitar is a main or essential part, ok, but I'm not always convinced even in that case, that stereo is the right answer. However. if stereo IS what you want, a pair of schoeps is fabulous. Mainly, this is because the rejection is perfect/flat/uncolored. also, with the MK21, you can get them in pretty tight and they still have the open feel of omni. (Don't dismiss omni).

2) For mono, I often use a royer 122, or a soundelux e49 several feet away. I use the royer in cases where I want more mid and chunk (rock), and the e49 in cases where I want a natural woody sound (anything else) often in omni. I used to use the Sure ldc's for this but they are very cardioid sounding, if that makes any sense. Did I mention omni's on acoustic are great? I get the blumlien thing in the previous post... that's cool too, but a lot like stereo omni in the end.

In most cases I now use a AEA rpq preamp with acoustic because the roll off is variable, i can shimmer the high end if I need to, and, as the man says, its a black hole for noise. Anyway, my .02.

[gtrplyr1]

Love my KM-69s' ...

Not an engineer but just a player who records a lot of Acoustic Guitar ... they are now my go to mics for that purpose.

[meverylame]

Umm... Omni?

[elladoizquierdo]

Originally Posted by tmcconnell

I use a pair of schoeps wide card (mk21) for acoustic. best sounds I have ever acquired from an acoustic. However, this comes with warnings.

1) stereo acoustic is not always what's needed in a big mix. When the guitar is a main or essential part, ok, but I'm not always convinced even in that case, that stereo is the right answer. However. if stereo IS what you want, a pair of schoeps is fabulous. Mainly, this is because the rejection is perfect/flat/uncolored. also, with the MK21, you can get them in pretty tight and they still have the open feel of omni. (Don't dismiss omni).

2) For mono, I often use a royer 122, or a soundelux e49 several feet away. I use the royer in cases where I want more mid and chunk (rock), and the e49 in cases where I want a natural woody sound (anything else) often in omni. I used to use the Sure ldc's for this but they are very cardioid sounding, if that makes any sense. Did I mention omni's on acoustic are great? I get the blumlien thing in the previous post... that's cool too, but a lot like stereo omni in the end.

In most cases I now use a AEA rpq preamp with acoustic because the roll off is variable, i can shimmer the high end if I need to, and, as the man says, its a black hole for noise. Anyway, my .02.

Thanks. Just what I wanted to know: experiences with wide cardioid or omnis on acoustic guitar. Any other users (shoeps or other brands)?

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

CMC6 Mkx capsule Schoeps are my favorite,
Schoeps are still very accurate overall with no unnatural or intentional rise (unless you buy a specific capsule that has that the rise....Mk4, Mk2, Mk21, etc are all basically flat).

+ 1 for Schoeps MY single CMC6 -MK4 is by far the nicest sound I've heard on my Acoustics
If I want a stereo type sound what I do is dup the single track and slip one ever so slightly. pan hard R and L . I have found this to have less boom in the low end than a pair of mic's

Also I now place the mic about 12 inches out from the upper waist on the GTR.

[peeweedrummer]

I used omni for some acoustics today with great success. a u87ai on a cheap nylon, about 10 cm out of the 12th fret sounded massive. for the steel string taylor I preferred card for most of the parts and omni for some. pulling the mic away for the card takes.


I also used wide card for lead vocals for the first time and was amazed. the chain was wunder cm7gt through great river mp500 into distressor into manley elop. wow. the singer could practically eat the mic on soft passages without sounding muddy.

[Greg B]

I have tried many mics on acoustic guitar over the years. Some of my favorites (of which I own) include the Shure SM81, C12, 251e, U47, ADK A6, and the Royer 121, but my CURRENT "go-to" acoustic guitar mics are the 3 Zigma CHI Small Cardioids. They are ultra-quiet and just sound very natural and musical. I just recorded all of the acoustic guitars for my own bands' acoustic album using the 3 Zigma CHI mics.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by elladoizquierdo

Hi,
I use to record acoustic guitars in stereo (one mic at the bridge one at the neck) with my stereo Neumann km184 pair and had been satisfied so far with the results but I don´t like very much the high mid rise the mics have for this app and I would prefer a more smooth mid high responce in my pair. I get good results on darker sounding guitars like vintage gibsons or martins with old strings, but not so goog on modern sounding (thin) guitars. For acoustic guitars I also have AEA R84 pair (too big and dark), Sehn 421 pair (just ok), Studio proyects C1 pair (too thin), one Neumann U87 (cool but mono)..., so I would like to invest in the best possible stereo acoustic guitar mics for my taste.
I am more in search for a natural/smooth/vintage acoustic sound than for a modern bright one.
I have an other problem. With every condenser cardioid pair I have tried (U67´s, Shoeps MK4, U87´s and my own KM184´s) I have allways to cut the lows (usually hi-pass at 80hrzs and -2/3db with a low shelf at 100/15hrz) on the strummed rithm parts due to the proximity efect of the mics at the distances I choose (aprox 20cm from the bridge, 20 cm from the 12th fret), so this time I´m thinking in getting a Shoeps pair but in the wide cardioid pattern (something between omni and card) that I think would have a more natural bottom (less prox. fx) and not need the EQ adjustment. I also like the fact that the Shoeps (at least the MK4´s I have recorded with many times in other studios) are very sweet in the high mid area where I don´t like my km184´s. Do you think I would get that more balanced sound I´m after: More controled bottom/sweet mid highs with that wide cardioid Shoeps pair?

Any experiences to share?

I haven't used the Schoeps wide cardioid caps, but I did sell my Schoeps CMC6/MK4 pair and replaced it with a pair of Schoeps CMC6/MK41. They work and behave better that the MK4 for solo fingerstyle guitar in near to medium placements (12" to 3').

Another great mic is the Gefell M295.

The 3 Zigma CHI mics Greg mentioned are quite nice too.

[chap]

I dig DPA 4015 wide cardiods for clean and accurate. If I want more wood I'll sub a brauner or Manley.
For odd ducks it's ribbons.

[gian]

Have you thought about Beesneez microphones?

Lulu
Bees Neez Microphones

Lulu FET
Bees Neez Microphones

Lulu FET tranyless
Bees Neez Microphones

hope that helps