Recording Jazz on a Film Set plus extra problems

[london_composer]

a plea for help and guidance from any cats out there with experience, knowledge and some time on their hands to provide a little input. as the composer on a low(no)-budget movie, the usual thing has happened whereby i'm required to take on some responsibilities which are a little out of my job description, in this case recording on set. so i'll cut the pre-amble and break it down for y'all.

date: this saturday 14th august
location: small jazz venue in east london
personnel: female vox, alto sax, tenor sax, piano, bass, drums

we are shooting some scenes for the movie which include a lot of live music being played on stage in front of a full house. we are committed to recording the music live instead of using playback or overdubbing, the reasons for this are firstly that we are determined to have the playing look real and be real, and secondly there isn't really any budget to get everyone together in the studio at a later date.

however, and here is the thing that is really making me lose sleep, the lead actor in the film is supposed to be a super heavy jazz cat and is featuring on two out of the five numbers on the alto sax. problem is he can't actually blow.... so, he will have to mime, no way around it, but he still has to look good. what we've done is pre-recorded the alto sax part including extensive solos so that he can learn the phrasing to mime to, he should be ready to do that on saturday, but he needs to hear the performance he is miming to while he plays or he will get totally lost over the course of a 5 minute track.

here is the solution i came up with:
- feed click to drums and bass so we can stay in sync with the solo (use very discrete ear buds)
- give the actor a playback speaker which he mime along to, just playing the pre-recorded sax solo
- close mic all of the real players and make sure the playback speaker is as far away from them as possible and pointing away from them

and here are the questions i could really do with some help on:
- will i encounter phase issues when adding the pre-record into the live recorded tracks in post (i'm guessing i can't avoid some amount of bleed from the playback speaker)
- would there be any hope of taking a recording of the playback in the room with no other sound occurring and with all the mics open, then flipping the phase to remove bleed? (a long shot i know!)
- does anyone have any recommendations on a playback speaker or any particular mics? (i'm aware there is loads of info on the board about recording jazz so i'm only asking in case you think of something specific to this issue as far as mics are concerned, feel free to give any other tips though, please!)
- is there a really obvious solution to this whole thing that blindingly simple to you guys that i've totally failed to take into account?

i still want to get some stereo room sound as i think it's important for the ambience in the movie (and there are other tracks which don't feature playback) but i fear that the room sound will be the worst signal as far as bleed is concerned.

thanks in advance for any input, i hope i haven't left out any key info.

yours respectfully and distressedly,

london composer

[Matti]

IEM or having the real player playing and recorded on site out of picture, easier to the other players? Playback on closeups
Just woke so these are just to open discussion

Matti

[soundinista]

I'd do it the other way round - just have the actor pretend to play, whatever he wants, not to any pre-recording. Then have a sax player overdub a solo later while looking at the footage. I think you get a better chance of a good fit there, and probably a more natural performance from the actor, as well as simplifying everybody's life.

No clicks (a click for jazz??!!), no foldback, no close mics cluttering up the place (and having to be mixed later to NOT sound like close mics) and it could be fun later trying to find the right notes and expression to go with the actor's movements. There aren't many opportunities for fun in post - seize them! You never know, it could come out like Ornette Coleman.

But no closeups of fingers. Tell your cameraman this repeatedly. Then tell the editor to throw away all the finger closeups. Actually, a better idea would be to take some shots of the real sax player's fingers, wearing the same suit, and cut those in.

And get your actor to practice miming with an actual player - when people pretend to blow, they think every note involves a mouth or head movement. Maybe even learn some scales just to get an idea what's involved. Don't be shy about suggesting this - that should be a perfectly normal expectation of the kind of preparation any half-serious actor should be doing for a role.

[tourtelot]

Nice discussion here. Lots of good ideas. And always a tough assignment even for very experienced on-set soundmen.

Good luck with your project.

D.

[london_composer]

thanks to all for input so far

@ Matti: could you explain what you mean by IEM? your suggestion for having the real player perform off camera was the first thing that came to mind. the reason why we thought of another approach is that it's not possible for the real player to play anything predictable, his solos are very strictly improvised!

the idea of picking up close ups with a louder playback is great and i will certainly put this forward to the crew, thanks so much.

@ Soundinista: i totally hear the logic in your suggestion, again it's the issue of the player we are using - he just doesn't really work that way around! so we kind of feel forced down the pre-record route. we have been getting the actor some tutoring with the horn so hopefully he will look comfortable - and we will be staying away from finger closeups for sure!! one thing is that i'm not sure that even without the foldback we can get a clean recording without close mics, it's a film set so there are lights, extras and crew all trying to mess with things. but i'm going to see what the actor thinks about miming without playback then picking up close ups with the playback on. guess we might just have to experiment on the night.

good to hear that i've been thinking about similar issues to you guys, thanks so much for all the input so far. it's really appreciated!!

does anybody have any thoughts on the mic bleed and phase cancellation issues i raised in the OP? i know it's unlikely to be able to cancel out the playback with phase reverse, but would be great to hear if anyone has even tried something like that. or even better if someone has some experience that suggests phasing wouldn't be a problem... maybe with particular mics and set up?

the fallback for all of this is that if there is a problem with the recordings it will just have to be overdubbed.

[Matti]

IEM = in ear monitoring, can be by radio or induction loop if not cabled.
The actor should be able imitate the players movements anyway so if they practise together he might be able to mirror his improvisation live seeing him playing out of the frame?
-Film or video?

Cheers

Matti

[london_composer]

Thanks for the explanation. If I can find discrete enough IEM that could be the perfect solution.

Shooting on Canon 5D, like many first time film makers I guess. (so no way of syncing as far as I can see).

Any recommendations on IEM?

Could use that for wides and playback for closeups as was suggested. Great input guys, thanks again!

[Matti]

If the musician is so improvised it may be difficult for the rest of the band
to follow a prerecorded solo.

I would still try to multirack the piece live while shooting the master scene where the actor would mirror to the musician and maybe the camera could take closeups of the other members of the band ( the drummer comes in mind as the most difficult one to perform well to playback ) if needed and then move to playback and closeups of the actor and others as needed.

In wide shots the body movements are what you are looking for from the actor rather than his fingers doing exactly right
Make a clever plan on paper how to shoot this with your cinematographer and
director

Best

Matti


P.S. http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

[philper]

If this is going to be the "real " music recording, I would strongly recommend that you get your mics in close and have the band play the tune until you get a couple of takes everyone likes. The cameras can shoot closeups around the mics. Then move the mics out, choose one hero take and use it for playback and have the band and actor play along, cameras shooting whatever they want. The edit will reconstruct the performance out of disparate shots, so you don't need straight through performances that are perfect every time, as long as you have enough good music takes to edit a final music master from.
You can sync the Canon 5D fine with a clap slate at the start of each take--all cameras can shoot a common mark. Turn on their camera mics or send a feed to the cameras as a syncing guide in post, to sync up your audio (recorded on something else) to picture. Make sure your TC frame rate matches the frame rate of the cameras.

Philip Perkins

[rack gear]

I feel for you as I have ...

shot documentary filming of actual live bands, two cameras and board sound, and the had to cheat the wild shots in post - this works out ok - generally I was shooting a whole show to get one song to look right in final picture so the shooting ratio helps alot.

I have also worked on narrative feature musicals, of which there are actors and concerns of musicianship etc. I spent the better part of two years working on a major feature between prep, shooting and post.

You are really taking on a difficult task, being neither here nor there. I think your solutions are really the best you can hope for...

I had big fights with the directors of both of narrative features I worked on as they both wanted the same thing you are about to attempt - which is to shoot a live band with one or more of the members as an actor, who in reality is not a musician. This is why we fake the performances to playback - so that the music is locked from take to take, and we can sort it out in post.

None the less, my best advice would be to get ALOT of coverage including several wide masters and alot of inserts so that you have plenty of room to navigate in post to cheat around sync and performance issues.

Good luck!

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by philper

If this is going to be the "real " music recording, I would strongly recommend that you get your mics in close and have the band play the tune until you get a couple of takes everyone likes. The cameras can shoot closeups around the mics. Then move the mics out, choose one hero take and use it for playback and have the band and actor play along, cameras shooting whatever they want. The edit will reconstruct the performance out of disparate shots, so you don't need straight through performances that are perfect every time, as long as you have enough good music takes to edit a final music master from.
You can sync the Canon 5D fine with a clap slate at the start of each take--all cameras can shoot a common mark. Turn on their camera mics or send a feed to the cameras as a syncing guide in post, to sync up your audio (recorded on something else) to picture. Make sure your TC frame rate matches the frame rate of the cameras.

Philip Perkins

+1!

[Matti]

it has been a while...

Matti

[Mike Caffrey]

Shoot the actor for face shots and the real player for the hands.

You can have the real player play live - or even learn the prerecorded solo and play that live so that the actor knows what's going to be played.

Try mixing some frame rates - 30 slowed down to 24. It can be a really cool look and if you do enough, people will accept the inexact sync as part of the visual esthetic. If you show an exact drum fill slowed down it will be clear that it's exact even though the sync is foo. Do that with some other players and once people see the sax with the slight slowing, the inexact sync will fell natural.

Borrow a 7D or 1D4 and shoot a 60fps as well. That will help cover it up even more and it can be a dramatic look.

[london_composer]

absolutely invaluable feedback, i'm indebted to you guys! regarding 5D sync i just meant that you can't feed them any TC to avoid drift, they are front and end boarding all of the shots. have discussed options like slo-mo and hand doubles but they are a no-go with this film for creative reasons (dir. choices, fair enough and i probably agree..). so, here is the plan i've devised, if you can find the time to review it i would love to hear your feedback, thanks again!

Step 1:
- set up close mics for multi-track recording, keep the positioning as non-intrusive as possible visually
- IEM for all players including actor, sax solo from pre-record sent to everyone, click also to bass and drums, no IEM for singer
- record audio and picture for 2-3 takes
- avoid shooting angles that show earphones visible (use only one earphone)
- choose one of the takes as the master take
- keep one camera on the singer for all takes in Step 1
Step 2:
- play back the full mix of the master take chosen in Step 1 (including sax + vocals) using the house PA + foldback monitors (add click on the front for count in)
- with IEM removed, shoot 2-3 takes (only record camera sound for sync) as the band plays along and singer sings along in sync with the playback of the master take
- extra takes / pickups if needed for closeups of sax and singer
Explanation:
- editor will cut to the sound from the master take, the shots of the singer from this take will be used for her main coverage
- start with the picture from the master take, then cut in additional shots from the takes from Step 2

[Matti]

Seems like a plan

Matti

[RMJAZZ]

I love this discussion thread! I'm a sax player and an engineer.

Keep us posted on the outcome of the shoot. And if you need any sax tracks through the mail give me a shout! LOL

Have a great gig.

Rob

[Boschen]

Tricky shoot! I feel your pain.

I think you are on to a method for the tech end of the set-up.

I'm a fan of several films that worked with and around this problem, like 'The Man with the Golden Arm' and 'Bird'. At least visually, they used the methods outlined by Philip, with good success.

QUOTE:
I would strongly recommend that you get your mics in close and have the band play the tune until you get a couple of takes everyone likes. The cameras can shoot closeups around the mics. Then move the mics out, choose one hero take and use it for playback and have the band and actor play along, cameras shooting whatever they want. The edit will reconstruct the performance out of disparate shots, so you don't need straight through performances that are perfect every time, as long as you have enough good music takes to edit a final music master from.
Philip Perkins
/QUOTE

In 'Golden Arm', you can see some of the jazz cats are really playing their parts in the close ups, while Frank is faking it (pretty well, tho). But they don't hold on close shots of his mouth, and the camera uses what are clearly carefully arranged poses for the 'hero takes' on Frank's solos. 'Golden Arm' is more polished-looking than 'Bird', which has a very gritty feel (it's Clint, after all) and is shot very dark, which certainly helps hide things in the club shots.

Here's a 'Bird' trailer with a clip or two like you describe, edited for the trailer, but you can get a sense of the club scene vibe.

YouTube - Bird

Forest Whitaker does a pretty good mime, though again, they don't dwell on his fingers.
Both those movies were build on edits and carefully planned camera movements that complement the music without revealing the wires behind the curtain.
It sounds like your plan could likely accomplish the same effect.
I think that's about the best one can do.

[philper]

Originally Posted by london_composer

absolutely invaluable feedback, i'm indebted to you guys! regarding 5D sync i just meant that you can't feed them any TC to avoid drift, they are front and end boarding all of the shots. have discussed options like slo-mo and hand doubles but they are a no-go with this film for creative reasons (dir. choices, fair enough and i probably agree..). so, here is the plan i've devised, if you can find the time to review it i would love to hear your feedback, thanks again!

Step 1:
- set up close mics for multi-track recording, keep the positioning as non-intrusive as possible visually
- IEM for all players including actor, sax solo from pre-record sent to everyone, click also to bass and drums, no IEM for singer
- record audio and picture for 2-3 takes
- avoid shooting angles that show earphones visible (use only one earphone)
- choose one of the takes as the master take
- keep one camera on the singer for all takes in Step 1
Step 2:
- play back the full mix of the master take chosen in Step 1 (including sax + vocals) using the house PA + foldback monitors (add click on the front for count in)
- with IEM removed, shoot 2-3 takes (only record camera sound for sync) as the band plays along and singer sings along in sync with the playback of the master take
- extra takes / pickups if needed for closeups of sax and singer
Explanation:
- editor will cut to the sound from the master take, the shots of the singer from this take will be used for her main coverage
- start with the picture from the master take, then cut in additional shots from the takes from Step 2

There are lots of ways to skin this cat--you have some good ideas here. Time to conference in the director, editor, DP and lead actor and see what they are comfortable with. The 5D doesn't drift syncwise any worse than any other video camera, and since it can only shoot for 12 min before it autocuts and has to be restarted (and reslated) you won't have a sync drift issue. In any case, sync in videos of live performance is in the eye of the beholder, and even exactly correct sync often gets changed in the edit because it doesn't look right.

Philip Perkins

[london_composer]

hi Boschen, i watched Bird and many other similar movies (Round Midnight / Mo' Better Blues etc) as research for this scene but haven't seen "... Golden Arm" yet, will search it out but likely not in time for saturday night. off topic actually thought Bird was pretty good for the most part and really enjoyed Round Midnight.

i think one major difference between those productions and the movie we are doing is that we have had very little time in pre-production. as an example i'm in the studio now on thursday night doing pre-records for the sax solo and the shoot is on saturday. looking forward to seeing how the actor can prepare in only 48hrs. also we have only one and a half hours on set to get two different tracks in the can including the acting that occurs directly before and after. doubt they had that sort of schedule on Bird! still, there's nothing like a bit of pressure and abject terror to bring out the best in everyone.

thanks for reassurance on sync Phil. this thread has really helped sort this whole thing out in my mind, huge respect to all the contributors.

[london_composer]

thought it would be cool to update this thread since the shoot is now done, perhaps someone will find themselves in a similar situation one day and could find this useful.

unfortunately the schedule we had to work with was just too tight, allowing enough time for what is really quite a complicated setup is absolutely vital. therefore we weren't able to fully implement the plan outlined above, however based on the experience that night i am certain it is probably the most suitable method to follow in similar circumstances (those being very limited time and budget).

perhaps the ideal technique would be to create full-studio pre-records so that all players / actors / can play along to these during the shoot. however, whilst it's reasonable to expect instrumentalists to achieve pretty decent sync with that approach, i think it's still worth considering live recording for singers if possible as the results of matching sync with pre-recorded vocals often leave something to be desired.

funnily enough, yesterday i read an interview with a top music supervisor / co-ordinator here in london who said that she had never come across a situation where live recording of music had been done on a film set and seemed to doubt the possibility of doing such a thing. well i can now say for sure that it does happen and in fact in not an unreasonable proposition. with a fairly basic recording set up we achieved quite satisfactory results. to my mind at least, one of the most obvious ways to achieve the look and sound of music being played live in a club is to film some musicians playing in the club and record them at the same time!

due to the restrictions of the schedule we were only able to shoot two takes of each track, so these were done as described by providing all the players and the actor with one ear of IEM which had the click and the pre-recorded sax solo. the actor mimed to that and the players played in sync with the click and we recorded the results at the same time as filming. for the vocal track we did the same but the singer didn't require the IEM and just followed the band. the idea had been to select a take and then play it back through the foldback so the IEM could be removed to improve filming options, however there wasn't time for this. so hopefully the IEM won't be too visible when they come to cut the film and they can work around it in the edit.

as it may be of further interest, here are the mics we used (if memory serves correct..):
- piano (baby grand): pair 414s, plus pair of contact mics underneath the piano body as there was too much spill to rely entirely on the 414s
- alto and tenor sax: senn 421
- vox: u89
- drums: kick senn 421, snare sm57, oh schoepsCMC5 pair
- bass: DI through amp plus an unknown clip mic

recorded through mackie onyx desk with firewire link into logic

thanks to all contributors for their advice and support!

[aracu]

a way to do it:

1. make high quality recording of music

2. play boom box on set for actors/ musicians to mime to

3. shoot in one take with no edits

4. in post replace boom box live recording with prerecorded music

[london_composer]

Hi Aracu, absolutely...there is a lot to be said for that approach. Although I think number 3. on your list is a little optimistic. More likely shoot several takes from all different angles and c/os.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by london_composer

Hi Aracu, absolutely...there is a lot to be said for that approach. Although I think number 3. on your list is a little optimistic. More likely shoot several takes from all different angles and c/os.

I suppose that if you recorded each of the multiple takes miming to a boom box recording while recording low quality sound into the camera, then in post each section of video you wanted to use for the final edit could be synced to the original recording. Then the low quality audio could be deleted.

[Matti]

Originally Posted by london_composer

thought it would be cool to update this thread since the shoot is now done, perhaps someone will find themselves in a similar situation one day and could find this useful.

unfortunately the schedule we had to work with was just too tight, allowing enough time for what is really quite a complicated setup is absolutely vital. therefore we weren't able to fully implement the plan outlined above, however based on the experience that night i am certain it is probably the most suitable method to follow in similar circumstances (those being very limited time and budget).

perhaps the ideal technique would be to create full-studio pre-records so that all players / actors / can play along to these during the shoot. however, whilst it's reasonable to expect instrumentalists to achieve pretty decent sync with that approach, i think it's still worth considering live recording for singers if possible as the results of matching sync with pre-recorded vocals often leave something to be desired.

funnily enough, yesterday i read an interview with a top music supervisor / co-ordinator here in london who said that she had never come across a situation where live recording of music had been done on a film set and seemed to doubt the possibility of doing such a thing. well i can now say for sure that it does happen and in fact in not an unreasonable proposition. with a fairly basic recording set up we achieved quite satisfactory results. to my mind at least, one of the most obvious ways to achieve the look and sound of music being played live in a club is to film some musicians playing in the club and record them at the same time!

due to the restrictions of the schedule we were only able to shoot two takes of each track, so these were done as described by providing all the players and the actor with one ear of IEM which had the click and the pre-recorded sax solo. the actor mimed to that and the players played in sync with the click and we recorded the results at the same time as filming. for the vocal track we did the same but the singer didn't require the IEM and just followed the band. the idea had been to select a take and then play it back through the foldback so the IEM could be removed to improve filming options, however there wasn't time for this. so hopefully the IEM won't be too visible when they come to cut the film and they can work around it in the edit.

as it may be of further interest, here are the mics we used (if memory serves correct..):
- piano (baby grand): pair 414s, plus pair of contact mics underneath the piano body as there was too much spill to rely entirely on the 414s
- alto and tenor sax: senn 421
- vox: u89
- drums: kick senn 421, snare sm57, oh schoepsCMC5 pair
- bass: DI through amp plus an unknown clip mic

recorded through mackie onyx desk with firewire link into logic

thanks to all contributors for their advice and support!

Matti

[london_composer]

Hi Matti, I have no idea what that string of letters means!

[Matti]

Actually, it would be nice to hear a small snip of this if possible

Matti