Best handheld recorder

[soundgeezer]

Hi I'm looking for the best sound quality portable handheld field recorder.
Main sound source will be nature.

Which one can you recommend ?

[boojum]

How big is your hand and how big is your wallet?

[soundgeezer]

I should be able to carry and pay it ...

[jeremy.c.]

I have a Zoom h4n that I've used for filming with a Canon 7D and the price is fantastic for the features. It can do mp3 up to 24/96k recording and has external mic inputs (they can supply phantom), plus the noise floor is super low and the built in XY mics are super sensitive (get a good windscreen like the redhead though if you're recording outside!!!).
There are probably better options for sound, but for under $300 new you can't beat it, though Zoom did just release a $99 version without the mic preamps.

[Steab]

Originally Posted by jeremy.c.

I have a Zoom h4n that I've used for filming with a Canon 7D and the price is fantastic for the features. It can do mp3 up to 24/96k recording and has external mic inputs (they can supply phantom), plus the noise floor is super low and the built in XY mics are super sensitive (get a good windscreen like the redhead though if you're recording outside!!!).
There are probably better options for sound, but for under $300 new you can't beat it, though Zoom did just release a $99 version without the mic preamps.

Sounds like a killer "budget" combo! Mind to upload a video sample with audio?
I consider buying the lumix gh1 or even the canon 5d and seems like those zoom recorders along with the dslr would be great for handy portable recording!

[WVUtubadude]

I really like my Zoom H2. I use it a lot when I am with my band on tour to review our performance afterwards and get some pretty good results with it.

I also messed around with it outside and remember getting some pretty stunning results considering it is a tiny SD recorder.

[9sbean]

Best? Sony PCM-D1.

[boojum]

Nature recordings will require very low noise electronics. The SONY mentioned above is a good starting point. I am partial to Sound Devices. Their SD 702 would do the trick for you. Here is a link: Sound Devices 702 - High-Resolution 2-Channel Compact Flash Field Record

These devices are rarely if ever discounted so find a dealer you like. You will need mics. I would recommend DPA 4060's. Link: DPA Microphones 4060 Omnidirectional Miniature 4060-FM - B&H

These are also price controlled so find a dealer you like. You may as well get the SMK kit as you will need the phantom power adapters. The other gear in the kit may be helpful, too. Link: DPA Microphones SMK4060 Stereo Microphone Kit SMK4060 - B&H

For just under $3K you have a rugged setup, low noise package. Folks will chime in and say that these mics are not low noise. A search of this board in this forum reveals the following nature recordings with these mics: Nagra LB - DPA 4060 - Sound Sample of a Forest

There are other recordings with the 4060's. Check them out and make up your own mind.

Disclaimer: I have Sound Devices recorders and am very pleased with them. I have DPA mics and am very pleased with them.

As always, YMMV

[Continental]

sony d50 is very good...

[synthoid]

Originally Posted by 9sbean

Best? Sony PCM-D1.

+1. Built like a tank and has a couple of very good-sounding mics.

-synthoid

[GuySonic]

Sony PCM-M10 seems best these days in terms of very small size, longest 20+ hr. running, best on-board mics, quietest mic preamplifer under $1500 price catagory, excellent build quality, and comes with internal 4 GIG. Best part is price: $199 usd from www.bhphotovideo.com in the cart!

[rocksure]

I am also very interested in this thread as I too am looking into an all-in-one hand held recorder for outdoor recording, mostly but not only for nature sounds.
In users experiences what are the microphones and preamps like in the devices like the Sony's etc? Is there much useable gain, and what's the noise floor like for recording sounds that aren't really close by or overly loud?
I have dragged round a laptop, a buss driven interface and a shotgun mic a bit, but find by the time you fire it all up the thing you were trying to record can be long gone. So I want something quick to operate, small and easy to wip out if I wanted to record something like seagulls on a beach or a rare bird singing in a tree.....or even a 427 V8 at a car meet......that sort of thing. Can those small devices give professional sounding results for stuff like that?

[9sbean]

Although PCM-D1 is the best "handheld" recorder, I spend my money for a Sound Devices 722. I kept a Sony PCM-M10 as my "handheld" unit.

[soundgeezer]

Thanks for your replies so far. Very interesting.

I will try to get a Sony (which one ?) and a sound device with DPA or Sanken mics from my local dealer and see how they compare.

@Boojum:
I would like to record in AB or XY, with the DPA kit that doesn't seem possible. How do you use it ?
Would the dpa 4090 be better for that purpose ?

@all:
Anyone tried this one SANKEN MICROPHONE CO .,LTD. | Product [ COS-22 ] ?

[tuRnitUpsuM]

Marantz PMD661 Review

i have no affiliation with Wingfield.... just a good place for Specification, Pictures and sound clips for the Marantz unit.

cheers

[Peter Allison]

I too will be in the market for a new handheld recorder next month, and for the past 18 months or so, have just been using the ZoomH2, and for all its quirkiness. And I just record the sounds of the pipe organ, and have been very surprised by the quality of the built in mics, sure the bass is missing, compared with say a good AB pair of omni's, but, hey, what do you expect for pocket money
I am looking at the marantz unit, as it has built in XLR's so will not be limited to just using in built ones, unfortunatley my budget does not strech to the more esoteric sound devices or nagra :-(
Peter

[boojum]

Originally Posted by soundgeezer

@Boojum:
I would like to record in AB or XY, with the DPA kit that doesn't seem possible. How do you use it ?
Would the dpa 4090 be better for that purpose ?

The DPA 406n are omni and what is used for AB. The 4099 is super-cardioid and would work for XY although it is usually cardiods which are used for that. I have never tried super-cards for XY. Perhaps others here have and can offer more help than I.

I use the 4061's in a 40cm AB and it works just fine. Check out Stereo Zoom for info on mic spacing and angles. http://www.microphone-data.com/pdfs/Stereo%20zoom.pdf

[jmuller]

I own a Zoom H4n and have been very happy with it. Decent, low-noise onboard mics, reasonable battery life (especially in stamina mode) and easy to operate. The two XLR/jack inputs are an additional bonus and let you do 4-channel recording, with built-in effects processing. However, I've found these inputs to be fairly hissy and harsh-sounding.

You can also use it as an audio interface, which is great when you're on the move with your laptop.

The H2 is amazing value if you don't need the additional inputs, but I don't think you'll get the "professional" sound you're after from the built in mics.

[rocksure]

Originally Posted by tuRnitUpsuM

Marantz PMD661 Review

i have no affiliation with Wingfield.... just a good place for Specification, Pictures and sound clips for the Marantz unit.

cheers

That Martantz unit looks great. With a decent sized display and controls, and having XLR inputs as well, it looks like the kind of device I am interested in.

[echoromeo]

I think the PCM-M10 is great, I use it primarily for nature and urban field recording, material for sound effects, etc. The omni directional mic's are very handy. It also looks like a cell phone, which is nice when out doing location recording. Also - buy the windscreen.

Originally Posted by GuySonic

Sony PCM-M10 seems best these days in terms of very small size, longest 20+ hr. running, best on-board mics, quietest mic preamplifer under $1500 price catagory, excellent build quality, and comes with internal 4 GIG. Best part is price: $199 usd from www.bhphotovideo.com in the cart!

[GuySonic]

Here are some suggestions for getting the best performance/user reliability from M10.

Use M10 ONLY set in 24 bit recording mode. Sample rate is your choice, but suggest using 44.1K sample rate if wanting best CD compatible editing options.

Use M10 MIC INPUT ONLY with sensitivity switch set in "LOW" taping over this switch to not be moved. FWIW 'HIGH' setting is 20 dB boosted gain mode with inferior quality audio.

Use M10 in full manual (not AUTO, Limiter) record level control mode setting also taping over this switch.

Wise tact is to always engage HOLD feature so touching buttons do not accidentally stop recording until you're ready to stop the session.

Do all editing in 24 bit mode, adjusting loudness and other changes desired. Then as last software edit step convert copy of file to 16 bit if later doing CD storing this copy of file for disc burning purposes.

NOTE: Sony M10 is one of the few stock decks able to directly power my own brand of stereo-surround baffled omni mic sets. This makes of an awesome audio quality and smallest possible 2-piece portable recording rig.

Hundreds of sample (mostly raw) recordings done with these mics heard at:
Ambient Stereo-Surround Composer, Nature Sounds, Musicology Recordings and Ambient Stereo-Surround Session and Live Performance Recordings

[soundgeezer]

It seems that for smaller handhelds the Sony, Edirol, Zoom etc are really good but from what I read it seems that Nagra LB and Sound devices 702 are a step ahead in sound quality.
Nevertheless as I said above I will try to get at least a Sony and a 702 or LB for testing purpose to hear any differences myself.

One question remains as I want the best possible sound quality in my nature recordings: which external stereo mics would you recommend ?

So far we have the DPA 4060 which do sound good for sure (can't really say anything about the noise floor but will try to get a pair for testing).
One problem might be the stereo setup as they are super small and I would like to exclude any phase issues from the beginning.

What other mics are used in profession nature recordings ?

[Petrus]

Originally Posted by soundgeezer

One question remains as I want the best possible sound quality in my nature recordings: which external stereo mics would you recommend ?

What other mics are used in profession nature recordings ?

Primus inter pares: Sennheiser MKH30 with MKH40 in MS configuration. MKH40 can be replaced with newer MKH8040. This combination gives the lowest noise, fits a Rycote blimp and is not affected by humidity.

[tuRnitUpsuM]

Originally Posted by rocksure

That Martantz unit looks great. With a decent sized display and controls, and having XLR inputs as well, it looks like the kind of device I am interested in.

Really is a nice unit... ive used it numerous times. Sounds good stock but can also be modded by Oade Brothers Audio (pretty sure they still do the modifications). Can actually buy the unit from them new and they do the mods right there pre-shipping for a marginal increase from stock price.

Marantz PMD-661

If using really low output Ribbons - Triton Audio Fethead works well if distance micing as it adds about 20 extra dbs to the stock preamps.

FetHead - tritonaudio

Metering is really good as they are right within view and are very clear from a distance. I really like multi-segment metering that isnt on a screen. Has a digital input (S/PDIF) as well as USB 2.0 for file transfers. Buttons are soft (squishy kind - purposely) but well designed. The unit really feels robust - guessing some of that comes from the shape (brick like) and alot from just the attention to detail Marantz put into the 661.

Really cant go wrong with the PMD661... for the asking price and what is offered there is alot of value. Added bonus is the mods that can be done or the Fetheads if alil more gain is needed (which really only happens when far micing or using extremely low output mics).

edit: it has a digital input ... ive always thought was an output. Just never needed to use it as i used the USB port to transfer record audio to a laptop. So opens up even more possibilities as you can input an external converter or preamp with digital output. hmmm.. grace lunatec come to mind....but honestly the stock amps are nice.

[GuySonic]

Originally Posted by soundgeezer

One question remains as I want the best possible sound quality in my nature recordings: which external stereo mics would you recommend ?

So far we have the DPA 4060 which do sound good for sure (can't really say anything about the noise floor but will try to get a pair for testing).
One problem might be the stereo setup as they are super small and I would like to exclude any phase issues from the beginning.

What other mics are used in profession nature recordings ?

While some do use 4060 for nature recordings, these are actually highly colored and a bit harsh, not giving true natural sound. But hard to tell this as nature sounds have little actual as-heard references as opposed to the natural as-heard sound of acoustic instrument were mic's uneven response is more easily identified.
Here is the (highly smoothed) spectrum graph of DPA frequency response showing artificial mic-high bandwidth emphasis:

Here is a not so smoothed wider bandwidth 4060 verses 4006 comparison showing jagged mid-high frequency response of 4060 causing harshness and unnatural response not so prevalent in the 4006 models.

Also uncolored windscreens are difficult to find as foam types also color sound reaching the mics.

My company makes custom windscreen configured microphones with lower noise, even and more extended frequency bandwidth than 4060 capsules.
Here is a photo of the DSM-1S/H windscreen headband configured microphone used for recording amateur and professional natural sounds.

Here are two recordings out of hundreds available made with this mic configuration:
Rock'n Rolling Thunder and light rain recorded in my driveway. Sounds of the afternoon with retired logger neighbors tending garden and a logging yarder sounding off in the near distance (the beep-beep sound) enhances the reality of living in a small once very scenic Oregon community that's clear cutting the surrounding forest for profit and real-estate.http://74.208.10.48/mp3/thunder5.mp3

It's early evening at Plat I, and a nearly constant breeze is blowing in the trees.

Canadian geese leave the water shortly before another westward overhead flock is heard. Small Plat I birds discuss pending nightfall as distant sound of a very high flying tanker plane paints the sky (with chemtrails).
http://74.208.10.48/mp3/platievg.mp3
Very low noise raw recording (~13 minutes) of mostly nature sounds. Played for best effect at moderate low volume in a relaxing quiet space.

[boojum]

Originally Posted by soundgeezer

So far we have the DPA 4060 which do sound good for sure (can't really say anything about the noise floor but will try to get a pair for testing).
One problem might be the stereo setup as they are super small and I would like to exclude any phase issues from the beginning.

I am not sure what phase issues would be introduced by their tiny size. I made a recoding of the Mendelssohn Elijah with the 4061's and it sounded fine to me and to the choral director. She is a Ph D in mus ed and has run chorales for years here and in Canada. She prefers the 4061's over the 4006's for recording her chorale. Her ears, not mine. I like their openness and silky upper registers. They are almost perfectly omni. But do not believe me, check any of the threads here on the 4060's.

I run mine without the grids when recoding the chorale which gives them an essentially flat 20 - 20kHz response and it is quite smooth. My disclaimer, again, is that I own and use SD recorders and DPA mics. I am pleased with them.