Sound Devices 788 vs. Edirol R44

[Drorsh4]

Hello,
I'm the Sound designer of a new small low budget film.
An argument came up - SD 788 or R44.
can anyone please give me the up and downside of every unit?
any experiance with both?

thank you

[sheetKnows]

I've never used the 788 but used the 702 and 722 a lot, and i absolutly love them. I used it mostly for sound effects gathering, and it was outstanding in picking up low amplitude sounds, paired up with a neumann kmr 81 or schoeps mk41. It also performed great on the shootings i did with it.

Having just used the edirol yesterday in a small shoot, and before for sound effects gathering, i can tell its definitely not the same thing, it certainly is cheaper. Really hissy! Its pretty useless if you compare it to the sound devices stuff, but then again, if the producer can't afford the SD....

Just be careful with the toes you step in. Play your part and get the next gig

[apple-q]

1) No Timecode (means no post-conform options later, no jam syncing with camera or smart slates)

1a) No pull-up/down sampling-rates (in case you need that)

2) Limiters are post ADC which makes them completely pointless.

3) Cheap plastic feel.

4) No MS monitoring

5) Bad mic-pres (phantom only supplies 20mA total for all 4 inputs. With power-hungry mics like Schoeps or Neumanns this won´t be enough when you have 4 mics connected. Actually P48 specs require 10mA per channel. Better try before the shoot if all your mics work to specs when connected to the R44)

6) Powering is via AA-batteries which is pointless on a stressfull shoot. So you need external 12V NP1 or other type powering (which will probably cost more that the entire unit when you buy 2-3 NP1 plus charger)

6a) Even worse than 6 is the position of the battery compartment. It´s on the bottom which is again stupid in a bag (unless it´s custom made and has an opening). On the cart it´s even more silly because you have to lift and turn the thing around to change the batteries which means your cables need to be either unplugged or tangled up. So again you need external powering to avoid that.

7) Controls are also on the top which is pretty stupid when you use it in a case over the shoulder. AFAIK, the top panel can not be locked so you really have to be carefull that you don´t stop the recording when moving around.

8) No meta-data support of any kind.

9) It simply does not compare to a 788.

10) It IS cheaper but definitely not the same.

and to make it go to 11:

11) You get what you pay for.

[mgoorevich]

Many things are just film friendly in SD recorder.

1. Fast naming and managing files and folders: scene / shot / take function. It saves time when synchronizing to picture in post.
2. You can receive/free run or transmit time code to the digital slate. You can wireless transmit your TC output with some lectro transmitter-receiver. It makes synching hassle free.
3. Fantastic quality pre-amps and converters. I just worked on film where I recorded everything with my SD744T and some scenes were recorded abroad with Edirol R44 (by another person).
You can hear the difference in a blind test.
4. Dynamic range is a great plus when you record scenes with excessive dramatic acting. An Edirol can go easily into distortion as its dynamic range not as good as advertised.
5. Flexible monitoring option. It's Sooooooo important to be able to monitor any channel in a simple turn of the pot!
SD has one of the best (if not the best) on board monitoring including favorite mode.
6. Its both hard disk and Compact Flash supported. It means you can record on both media at once. In the end of the day you can provide a CF card to the production for synchronizing and back ups. While still having everything on your hard drive.
7. You can run on one built in battery almost 12 hours! Changing the battery take 20 sec!
8. it's very comfortable at work. Display, controls and pots - are just what you need.
9. You can trust the meters - what you see is what you get.
10. in 5 years in never failed - and I live in Tel Aviv where it usually 35℃ with humidity about 100%. And I use a regular hard drive - not a solid state one.

I am a sound designer and recordist in one. when I receive material from other recordists it's always a pleasure to deal with material recorded on SD recorders.
In the end it's up to the professionalism to use the device but usually people recording features are not newbies...Although there are some exceptionstutt
Hope that helps.

[Drorsh4]

Thanx.

I couldn't ask for better answers.

I live in Tel Aviv where it usually 35℃ with humidity about 100%

tell me about it

[philper]

While not germane to SFX gathering, your friends may someday want to use their recorder for sync sound work. The clock and TC gen in SD recorders are as good as such things get in portable machines--which is very good indeed. The clock and TC accuracy of an Edirol is about what most MI type products are, which means that on its own it will only hold a jam sync for a few minutes. I also recall something about that recorder not being able to make 23.98 fps TC (vital for HD video), although that may have been fixed. For the SFX work you want to do in the short run, the 788 is certainly far higher fidelity higher head room and just plain sounds nicer than all the cheaper machines out there. I think you might really notice this diff when you start to do things like speed your sounds up and down for effect.

Philip Perkins

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by philper

The clock and TC accuracy of an Edirol is about what most MI type products are, which means that on its own it will only hold a jam sync for a few minutes.

It won´t jam sync at all because it doesn´t support timecode as mentioned before.

[Drorsh4]

yes,
No TC on the R44 only on the R-4 PRO which is R44 with TC in a way.

I'm going to insist on the SD.

BTW, about the R44, why would anyone want limitation AFTER the ADC stage?

[philper]

Originally Posted by apple-q

It won´t jam sync at all because it doesn´t support timecode as mentioned before.

And its clock will drift considerably vs even a prosumer video camera, let alone something clocked to a stable crystal, unlike the SD recorders w/ or w/o TC. The main thing is that the audio you get from this thing will work less well the more you ask of it (in terms of speed changes, as well as "reaching" for low- level sounds).

Philip Perkins

[Smallbudgetguru]

Id like to add that we have an R44.. Its not AS bad as everyone here claims it to be. Yess its a little hissy but thats in the monitoring chain not in the recording chain, so the audio doesnt take that hit. I agree it has its limitations but hey you get what you pay for its damn cheap!!!! That with a MKH 415 and T power has proven some great results! We do not do location sound as much anymore so TC is less of an issue. Will prob get a SD sooner than later but if you don't have the budget do not shy away from the Edirol , its not horrible at all. But I hear what you guys are saying. We only use it for SFX gathering or the odd documentary shoot as a mixer and snake to camera. Works great for that and its given us several years of reliable use.

Don't forget for almost the same price you can have it purchased new with modified pre-amps that drastically improve quality.

Also if you run an external PRO battery you get a lot more use out of it.

[apple-q]

I think nobody wanted to imply that the R44 is a piece of junk. The question was how it compares to something like a 788.

The R44 is probably totally worth it´s cost, but the first claim that "it´s the same as a 788 only cheaper" is obviously nonsense.

[Smallbudgetguru]

Agreed!

[charles maynes]

the limiters on the 788 are post A/D as well, and are not available at all @96k.


just fyi.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

the limiters on the 788 are post A/D as well, and are not available at all @96k.


just fyi.

this has been debated recently here when someone claimed the same thing.

fortunately it is not true. they are not available at 96k because they are controlled digitally and I guess the processing power to control 12 limiters at 96k is limited. the actual level control is done pre a/d in the analog domain. sd calls them hybrid limiters.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5542220-post4.html

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by apple-q

this has been debated recently here when someone claimed the same thing.

fortunately it is not true. they are not available at 96k because they are controlled digitally and I guess the processing power to control 12 limiters at 96k is limited. the actual level control is done pre a/d in the analog domain. sd calls them hybrid limiters.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5542220-post4.html

Thanks for the clarification- since I work work solely at 96k and 192k, I have found the 788 unsuitable for field work, The 744 doesnt have the same limitation, and the unfortunate fact of SD deciding that the the limiters are not an essential feature for high sample rate work has rendered the machine useless in that venue, at least for me. Though I have to confess, that that answer makes no sense to me.

[Jaymz]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Thanks for the clarification- since I work work solely at 96k and 192k, I have found the 788 unsuitable for field work, The 744 doesnt have the same limitation, and the unfortunate fact of SD deciding that the the limiters are not an essential feature for high sample rate work has rendered the machine useless in that venue, at least for me. Though I have to confess, that that answer makes no sense to me.

I can attest to this. Having been on a field recording session all week where we recorded 20 British Military vehicles. For the Warrior APC firing 30mm shells, our mobile recordist went down to 48k so he could use the limiters.

What mobile unit would you recommend for firing sounds, charles? We might be going back to do small arms later this year. Will also try and recapture the Challenger 2 tank firing it's main gun, which we used 96k on the 788 for, but of course, no limiting.

[Denis Goekdag]

The 788 not having it's full feature set at all rates, and not going to 192k, makes it a no-go unit for me. Really a pity, as the rest of the unit seems fine.
The Sonosax SX-R4 is AFAIK the only box with more than 2 pre's that goes to 192k with full functionality --- looking at swapping my 702 for that sometime.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Denis Goekdag

The Sonosax SX-R4 is AFAIK the only box with more than 2 pre's that goes to 192k with full functionality --- looking at swapping my 702 for that sometime.

I think many of the Devas do that too.

[Denis Goekdag]

Hmm, the way I read their manuals is that they max out at stereo when at 192k.

Originally Posted by Deva 5.8 and 16

Recording at 192 kHz requires large amounts of the Deva’s processing cycles. Because of this, you must enable it when powering on the Deva. Zaxcom recommends that you reduce your recording channels to two, turn off any EQ, and unneeded routing when recording at 192 kHz.

Looks like the Fusion will do it, however. Must have missed that ;-)

[Modo]

Originally Posted by apple-q

this has been debated recently here when someone claimed the same thing.

fortunately it is not true. they are not available at 96k because they are controlled digitally and I guess the processing power to control 12 limiters at 96k is limited. the actual level control is done pre a/d in the analog domain. sd calls them hybrid limiters.
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/5542220-post4.html

The R44 has the same sort of limiters, they are hybrid in the since that they limit both pre and post A/D. It talks about it in detail in the R44 manual.

I have a R44, I haven't had the privilege of working with any Sound Devices gear yet so I can't compare. But I am digging my r44. The preamps really are quiet with very decent headroom. The headphone amp is a drag, it does have a hiss ( that isn't in the recording chain ), it doesn't go as loud as I need it for quiet sources in urban environments. But I'm getting some wonderful dialogue, Sfx, and music recordings from it. Another downside for music, you can't multitrack on the r44 for overdubbing.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Jaymz

I can attest to this. Having been on a field recording session all week where we recorded 20 British Military vehicles. For the Warrior APC firing 30mm shells, our mobile recordist went down to 48k so he could use the limiters.

What mobile unit would you recommend for firing sounds, charles? We might be going back to do small arms later this year. Will also try and recapture the Challenger 2 tank firing it's main gun, which we used 96k on the 788 for, but of course, no limiting.

I have never yet been disappointed with the 744. I have heard great things also come from the Cantar, though here in Los Angeles, I can get 744's very easily on rental- I tend to take at least 3 and sometimes 4 or 5 of them out for weapons. the downsides- I have not had more than 3 machines reliably function with the D-Link ethernet cables.

the upside of multiple machines vs a single one- It is pretty unlikely for more than one machine to not work- If you have no backups, it could be a catastrophe. If you do choose the 788, you could always put 2 SD 442 mixers in front of it, and use the 788's line level inputs. That would give you limiters and trims on the mixers.

[DeafDave]

I assumed that you were taking about the pro model of the Edirol R44 (Roland Systems Group U.S. - Product: R-4 Pro) but as I read on it seems most people were comparing the Sound Devices 788 to the basic Edirol R44 (Roland Systems Group U.S. - Product: R-44) not the pro version???

I dont know why you would bother doing that given the price and quality difference?

Does anyone know the difference between the basic r44 and then the pro version? In practice that is not the theoretical difference on paper.

I see that you can get the r4pro modified
Edirol R4Pro Hard Disc Recorder Upgrades

That would be a more interesting and worthwhile comparison surely?

This image linked below shows the time code in and out on the r44pro:

Edirol R4Pro Memory Recorder - Left

[leddy]

Originally Posted by apple-q

AFAIK, the top panel can not be locked so you really have to be carefull that you don´t stop the recording when moving around

This one is not accurate. It can be locked.

[Ozpeter]

This image linked below shows the time code in and out on the r44pro:

Edirol R4Pro Memory Recorder - Left

Dave, the R44 and the R4 Pro are two quite different devices. There is no such thing as an "R44Pro".

Some Edirol reps have stated that the R44 has the same mic preamps as the R4 Pro, however.

Modifications are also available for the R44 but whether the result is worthwhile has been debated at length here and elsewhere.

The R44 was being compared to the SD788 because that's the choice offered to the original poster.

Recordings from those two devices have been posted online for comparison and the differences in those particular recordings have been hard to spot. However, suitability for a particular task does not just depend on the sound quality but also on the feature set, as discussed above.

Welcome to the forums.

[Tommy-boy]

The R44 is not the piece of junk that some posters in this thread have made it out to be.

• The pres and good and clean.
  
• The limiters work (i've banged against them a few times). They are not just post A/D limiters (which would be worthless). They are hybrids in that they limit pre a/d and then boost digitally to maintain signal level
  
• I happen to like the controls on the top as I usually have mine on a small table as I record ensembles
  
• Battery implementation is fine. If power get's disconnected, the R44 will seemlessly switch to battery power. External battery packs can be purchased that plug into the power supply socket. I rolled my own, (soldered the power jack to a battery holder) which works fine.
  
• The headphone amp seems to work fine with my 7506s.

The R44 wasn't designed to be the end-all be-all high end pro recorder with time code and all sorts of other bells and whistles. It's an audio capture device and it works well in that role.

There are only 2 things that I would like to change on the R44:

1. The ability to monitor, as opposed to recording, decoded M-S. I currently get around this by using an external splitter and line mixer for monitoring.
2. I would make both level / sens knobs be in the analog domain. Sens controls analog gain and level controls gain after the A/D. I get around this by ignoring the one knob (level - set to noon). Not really a big deal.

-Tom

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by DeafDave

I assumed that you were taking about the pro model of the Edirol R44 (Roland Systems Group U.S. - Product: R-4 Pro) but as I read on it seems most people were comparing the Sound Devices 788 to the basic Edirol R44 (Roland Systems Group U.S. - Product: R-44) not the pro version???

I dont know why you would bother doing that given the price and quality difference?

Does anyone know the difference between the basic r44 and then the pro version? In practice that is not the theoretical difference on paper.

I see that you can get the r4pro modified
Edirol R4Pro Hard Disc Recorder Upgrades

That would be a more interesting and worthwhile comparison surely?

This image linked below shows the time code in and out on the r44pro:

Edirol R4Pro Memory Recorder - Left

PM Sent.

-Dan.

[A3rd.Zero]

I know this is an old thread that I'm digging up but I'd like to contribute a few notes.

1. I've owned the R44 and while I like it I didn't find that it suited my work at all. The finikyness of the levels and the horrible headphone amp make it necessary to attach so much other gear to it that I'd rather not bother.

2. While the limiters are not avaliable on the 788 at higher sample rates I've never actually bothered to use the limiters. Clipping the mike pres in the 7 series recorders is a non issue, it doesn't sound bad, and it doesn't create digital crap. I ride the levels and make sure that I'm in a comfortable range and if it clips it clips. No problem either on the recording or later in post. It's just never been an issue, and I routinely run the machine into clipping on high transient sounds.

3. I can't stand sticking a mixer ontop of a 744. It's just a mess, why not just run a pair of 702? I'll gladly spend more money to have a 788 with all the mike pres onboard.

Obviously these are all personal opinions but I have owned and used an R44 with Doug Oade's modification and while it sounded very nice at a specific level setting and a specific volume of source, the work I do is never specific so I sold it.

Charles, I'm interested in what mike pres you use with the 744 as all of the SD pres that have more than two channels only have two channels of post fader output (except the 552). Or do you just run a pile of 302s?

[Ozpeter]

The finikyness of the levels and the horrible headphone amp make it necessary to attach so much other gear to it that I'd rather not bother.

I've not heard of such problems from others using the "stock" R44 so it sounds like the Oade mods are to blame.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by A3rd.Zero

Charles, I'm interested in what mike pres you use with the 744 as all of the SD pres that have more than two channels only have two channels of post fader output (except the 552). Or do you just run a pile of 302s?

typically I will use 302's- which I think I prefer....
I have used a 442 to split between 2 744t's and it was fine, though I think I preferred the sound of the 302. I only use the direct channel outs, so I cant really comment on the 2 buss for either mixer- but they are both adequite for the work I do with them.

I also will sometimes use the Mixpre's with them which are fine as well- but a little more simple in the sense of there being no input trim on the channels.

[Arthur Stone]

Originally Posted by Drorsh4

Hello,
I'm the Sound designer of a new small low budget film.
An argument came up - SD 788 or R44.
can anyone please give me the up and downside of every unit?
any experiance with both?

thank you

I'm not familiar with the R44; I assume it's a competent prosumer unit and it fulfils a good role. My SD702 is a first-class piece of engineeering that handles audio flawlessly with good operating ergonomics...it is professional kit and comparable with leading recorders.

I'm a hobbyist, having spent 12 years gathering audio-video equipment, and up until now I could have got by with a R44 (albeit with lesser-quality audio and the need to protect the R44 in the field); however, my hobby is developing, the video work more complex and the audio quality more critical...now, the extra investment in the 702 is paying off.

I'm not limited by the equipment.

From my hobbyists perspective I would recommend you check out a Sound Devices unit on the basis of it's professional capability.