punk rock drums and bass recording

[boxer]

Hi all!
I am recording next saturday drums and bass for a punk rock album. I will get the bass straight from the amp line out, but I have doubts on how to record the drums. My mics are:

- Bluebird
- MXL 993
- MXL 604
- 2 shures 57

I was thinking using only the 993 as mono overhead (I usually do that since I don't have a matched pair), shure 57 on snare and bluebird on kick drum hole. Any other ideas? Thanks a lot!

Dan

[jetam]

I would use MXLs as spaced pair for overheads. Although matched pair might be better, stereo overheads will certanly sound much better than mono.

SM57 on snare and in kick.

Bluebird outside kick.
If you have nice room, you can also try it as a room mic.

[hbphotoav]

Why not the 57s overhead XY for a tight stereo image (it is, after all, punk... not a feathery-touched and highly nuanced jazz trio) and the Bluebird out front for some "room"? The "natural" bit of dynamic mic "compression" and the high SPL handling of the 57s might sound decent. If it doesn't... move the mics around a bit and try something else... maybe the Bluebird by the right knee and a 57 inside the kick for more "click" from the beater, with a MXL out in the room a bit... or vice-versa...

Don't forget to (as long as you have the mics and tracks available) mic up the bass cabinet... air actually moving off a cone has a sound all its own, and is far different than electrons moving from a pickup through a preamp into a DAW. Blend to taste.

Enjoy the chaos! Rock on!

HB

[boxer]

Hi guys, thanks for the answers.
Do you think I can use the MXL 993 and 604 as XY overheads?
I think they will get more cymbal crisp than the shures, but will I have phase issues since they are not matched?

Thanks

Dan

[surfspank]

If phase is your concern try using a Glyn Johns/ Recorderman overhead setup with the MXL's as overheads. Matching is not essential. With the mics equidistant from the snare and centering it you can use the levels to balance out any phase issues. 57's on snare and kick, Bluebird in the room where it sounds the best and you're laughing. Enjoy.

[jetam]

Yes, Glyn Johns is an great idea. IMO much better than XY. I really don't like xy.

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by boxer

Hi guys, thanks for the answers.
Do you think I can use the MXL 993 and 604 as XY overheads?
I think they will get more cymbal crisp than the shures, but will I have phase issues since they are not matched?

Thanks

Dan

But you won't really know 'til you listen... they also might be harsh, clang-y and overbearing. If you have 10 minutes to set up before you roll, by all means take whatever advice you think will work and go. Otherwise... try some different things and let us know what your own ears tell you. My ears have told me in the past that 57s are SOMETIMES a good mic on cymbals. Let yours be your guide.

[Michaelrophone]

Okay, when it comes to recording punk, I'm gonna have to chime in.

You see, the phrase, "it's punk music, it's supposed to sound like #$%@" really pisses me off. Anyone who is truly familiar with the genre knows that there's far more substance to punk rock than is typically assumed, as well as many punk bands that truly sound better than a lot of the poppy garbage floating around out there these days.

Here's what Michael would do:

For the kick:

Now, I had to look up the MXL mics, but from what I read, It seems like the MXL 604 can really take a beating. It also has a pad switch, so I would probably stuff that bad boy up inside the kick by the beater. With punk rock, that beater is far more important than anything else on the kit, so make sure you listen and get it in the right spot. Take one of your 57s and put that near the port, off-axis to avoid the "whoosh" of air that comes flying out of there. How far off axis? Again, you'll have to listen to know for sure. 57s, though not particularly known for their low-end response, actually do pick up quite a bit of those "boom" frequencies. They do have a roll-off, but it rolls off the frequencies that you typically have to cut anyways to clean up the beat. You may still need to roll off more, but it's the beater you're after. That puppy HAS to cut through the mix. Having too many low frequencies on a punk rock kick drum is the kiss of death come mix time. They're playing fast and these waves take time to die down. Kill them. While you're at it, kill anything around 400hz as well.

Also, the Bluebird is a really hot mic and punk drummers can get pretty loud. I'd keep it away from the kick personally; it will be far more useful later on.

As for the snare: 57... need I say more? Moving on...

Now it's time to grab that Bluebird, stick it on a stand and hoist it up to the overhead position. The thing I love about the Bluebird is that it has a "tear through the mix" kind of presence. While it can be a little aggressive for some people's taste, these are punk drums we're recording and aggressive is the name of the game. Swing that thing in the air and find your sweet spot, then sit back and let it work its magic.

Don't worry about having stereo drums, mono can often get you further than you realize, especially in this genre.

Wait... we still have another mic! Well, if you have an empty input channel, I guess you could stick it on the floor tom or out in the room somewhere. Try things out and see what you like. Or, more importantly, what the band likes.

And to anyone who truly believes that all punk rock sounds like #$%@... I have two words for you: Ryan Greene. fuuck

Cheers,
-Michael

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Michaelrophone

Okay, when it comes to recording punk, I'm gonna have to chime in.

You see, the phrase, "it's punk music, it's supposed to sound like #$%@" really pisses me off. ... Take one of your 57s and put that near the port, off-axis to avoid the "whoosh" of air that comes flying out of there. How far off axis? Again, you'll have to listen to know for sure.

...

Also, the Bluebird is a really hot mic and punk drummers can get pretty loud. I'd keep it away from the kick personally; it will be far more useful later on.

...
Don't worry about having stereo drums, mono can often get you further than you realize, especially in this genre.

Wait... Try things out and see what you like. Or, more importantly, what the band likes.

And to anyone who truly believes that all punk rock sounds like #$%@... I have two words for you: Ryan Greene. fuuck

Cheers,
-Michael

Errrrmmm... I do not recall anyone saying "all punk rock sounds like #$%@..."

It's more like... "Again, you'll have to listen to know for sure."

I said... "(it is, after all, punk... not a feathery-touched and highly nuanced jazz trio)"... implying only that a nice sensitively nuanced U87 might be better than a 57 for the overheads in that particular situation. You said: "the Bluebird is a really hot mic and punk drummers can get pretty loud"... implying that a sensitive and nuanced mic might not be the best for this genre.

So... Basically, we agree. Especially "Try things out and see what you like". But I must admit, I haven't a frickin' clue about who Ryan Greene is. My bad.

HB

[Michaelrophone]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Errrrmmm... I do not recall anyone saying "all punk rock sounds like #$%@..."

I know, I wasn't referring to anyone on this particular thread.

However, it is a widely spread viewpoint. I work with a lot of punk bands and I can't tell you how many of them spent a good bit of hard-earned cash only to have some schmuck of an "engineer" do a hack job on them and reply with, "it's punk, it's supposed to sound like #$%@".

Punk is a genre that you really have to understand in order to properly work in. It is not, however, an excuse for sloppy work.

So Harry, I apologize if you took my remark personally. It was never directed at you.

[DannyL]

I think a lot of people get carried away by the question of genre:

There is no particular drum sound or guitar sound endemic to punk, jazz or any other type of music. There are some sounds that people have liked, but genres are more about the energy than the technology. What is important is to capture the sound of the individual player's instrument and more importantly to GET THE FEEL!!!!

I suggest working live, mic'ing the bass cabinet as well as using a DI and get whatever sound the band is creating. Work fast. Have everything ready and partially cabled before anyone gets there. If you can have the drummer (or his roadie) arrive first.

I have worked with some pretty big name punk bands, as well as some prominent jazz artists, classical artists and folkies. Every session has its own challenges. Mostly its about using what you know and getting out of the way when the music starts.

Regards;
Danny

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by surfspank

If phase is your concern try using a Glyn Johns/ Recorderman overhead setup with the MXL's as overheads. Matching is not essential. With the mics equidistant from the snare and centering it you can use the levels to balance out any phase issues. 57's on snare and kick, Bluebird in the room where it sounds the best and you're laughing. Enjoy.

something like this is what I was thinking too, you might try one overhead also