NAGRA VI is now 8-channels!

[John Willett]

I received an e-mail from Nagra 5-minutes ago.

We are pleased to announce that the NAGRA VI is now an 8 channel recorder.

Install version V 3.00 (available on our web site) into your NAGRA VI and it will have channels 7 and 8 activated. The updated manual, and software bulletin are also available on the web site under the PRO / SUPPORT section in the usual way.

I have known this was coming for a while now - it's arrived earlier than expected.

I'm off to download the updates now.

[Larry Elliott]

[tsvisser]

One extremely happy camper here.

[John Willett]

Looks like everyone is trying at once - I can get inti the Nagra site OK, but downloading the updates hangs.

I'll try again later.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by John Willett

Looks like everyone is trying at once - I can get inti the Nagra site OK, but downloading the updates hangs.

I'll try again later.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app

How many Nagra VI owners could possibly be trying to download at once?

With this update, my track count is now officially satisfied. I doubt I will ever record more than 6 ISO tracks (1 boom, 1 ambience/2nd boom, 4 radios). I wonder, though, if we will see a 10 track recorder in the future (4 analog, 4 digital, 2 mix)? I would also like to see the 7/8 mix track be able to be recorded as tracks 1/2, so that it "rotates the mix" to the first two tracks (like the Aaton Cantar does). Even if this is done at end of day with a software utility / during the sound report generation, that would be cool.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

How many Nagra VI owners could possibly be trying to download at once?

No Idea - I have managed to get the manuals, but not the software at the moment.

The NEW FEATURES list is:-

• New: The channel count moves from 6 to 8. The internal mix is attributed to channels 7 + 8. Channels 5 + 6 have a mute position in the drop-down menu depending on the use of inputs 5 & 6 (AES). Monitoring of channels 7 & 8 can be selected in the monitoring menu by selecting the “7+8 if mon. OFF” position and then setting all the monitoring selectors on the front panel to the OFF position.

• New: The mixer is now ALWAYS 6 channels. Mono selection is now made in the mixer menu by selecting MONO under the output level fader. This mode allows 6 to 1 mixing.

• New: Optimization of the formatting time for hard disks. This is particularly useful for external USB hard drives. (An external 500GB disk will now format in 20 seconds rather than the 20 minutes previously needed)

• New: A Playback screen selection has been added to the screen templates menu allowing the user to select the screen display mode during playback.

• The TC Out and display in STOP mode has been improved. Previously there was a 2 – 3 frame difference due to the dynamic compensation.

Nice to see that they have also now implemented my suggestion for the replay screen.

[John Willett]

Great! - managed to get the software now - so off to do the update.

[MichaelPatrick]

I'm looking for 8 inputs and see that XLR inputs 5/6 are switchable between AES and Analog. How are 8 ISO tracks recorded without 8 inputs?

I MISUNDERSTOOD: I just looked back at tvisser's post to see that it's 6 ISO tracks and an L/R mix. Yet a question remains about the future: Is this recorder physically capable of capturing 8 ISO tracks from individual inputs? If there are 2 more inputs hidden somewhere this recorder might go back on my wanted list.

[philper]

So the VI is now 6 analog in (4 mic/ 2 line only?), and can record a mix pair too? But 7/8 can't record anything but a mix of the inputs? Does the VI record in a "split poly" mode (sorry--that's the Metacorder term) with a stereo poly mix pair and isos or a poly for the rest? And is there a way to get multiple digital channels out of the machine at once (so it could be used as preamps and convertors for a computer-based recording system)?

Very cool upgrade in any case.

Philip Perkins

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by philper

So the VI is now 6 analog in (4 mic/ 2 line only?), and can record a mix pair too? But 7/8 can't record anything but a mix of the inputs? Does the VI record in a "split poly" mode (sorry--that's the Metacorder term) with a stereo poly mix pair and isos or a poly for the rest? And is there a way to get multiple digital channels out of the machine at once (so it could be used as preamps and convertors for a computer-based recording system)?

Very cool upgrade in any case.

Philip Perkins

7&8 are a mix of 1-6 and can be recorded at the same time or later as I understand it.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by philper

So the VI is now 6 analog in (4 mic/ 2 line only?), and can record a mix pair too? But 7/8 can't record anything but a mix of the inputs? Does the VI record in a "split poly" mode (sorry--that's the Metacorder term) with a stereo poly mix pair and isos or a poly for the rest? And is there a way to get multiple digital channels out of the machine at once (so it could be used as preamps and convertors for a computer-based recording system)?

Very cool upgrade in any case.

Philip Perkins

According the V3 manual, it can only do poly for all tracks, to include the mix, or all mono. That is a very useful request, though, and am adding it to the Nagra VI firmware request thread. (which I bother John Owens with every now and again)

Regarding your question on multiple digital outputs, yes, this is a feature that has been supported since V1.0. There is an AES-3 output on XLR and in addition, there are 4 more channels available on the DB-15 breakout, for a total of 6 channels of AES output. The AES outputs can be assigned to direct outputs from the preamps, or they can also be assigned to other things, such as the monitoring output, output matrix (mixer without gains), or the mixer. I do exactly this with my ProTools LE rig, where I'll feed 6 channels of AES to an Alesis AI4, which converts it to Lightpipe. It works and sounds terrific.

[Plush]

Once again Kudelski delivers value to its customers.

Thank you, NAGRAVISION.

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by Plush

Once again Kudelski delivers value to its customers.

Thank you, NAGRAVISION.

And at NO cost for the upgrade!

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

I'm looking for 8 inputs and see that XLR inputs 5/6 are switchable between AES and Analog. How are 8 ISO tracks recorded without 8 inputs?

I MISUNDERSTOOD: I just looked back at tvisser's post to see that it's 6 ISO tracks and an L/R mix. Yet a question remains about the future: Is this recorder physically capable of capturing 8 ISO tracks from individual inputs? If there are 2 more inputs hidden somewhere this recorder might go back on my wanted list.

If you do not use the L/R mix, you can record up to 8 ISO tracks:

8tr (analog/digital): 4 mic/line inputs + 2 2ch AES inputs
7tr (analog/digital): 4 mic/line inputs + 1 line input + 1 2ch AES input
6tr (analog only): 4 mic/line inputs + 2 line inputs

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by meltemi

If you do not use the L/R mix, you can record up to 8 ISO tracks:

8tr (analog/digital): 4 mic/line inputs + 2 2ch AES inputs
7tr (analog/digital): 4 mic/line inputs + 1 line input + 1 2ch AES input
6tr (analog only): 4 mic/line inputs + 2 line inputs

That answers my question. This news is truly delightful!
(For some reason I had blinders on when looking at those AES inputs, thinking 1ch each even though I know better.)

Now the question is, how will the unit perform being clocked by an external ADC? I assume that it must sync the internal ADCs to AES IN, because there is no W/C out to master an external 2 or 4ch ADC. Is this right? What performance changes, if any, in jitter performance can be expected when the internal clock is slaved? For example, is there jitter management of AES INs, of slaved internal ADCs, or both?

[Larry Elliott]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

Now the question is, how will the unit perform being clocked by an external ADC? I assume that it must sync internal clocks to AES input because there's no W/C out so it can master an outboard ADC. Is this right? What performance changes, if any, can be expected when the internal clocks are slaved?

I regularly use mine clocked from an external AES source with no problems at all. Note that I am using it as a DA in these instances and not recording.
Larry

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by Larry Elliott

I regularly use mine clocked from an external AES source with no problems at all. Note that I am using it as a DA in these instances and not recording.
Larry

That's good to know. My concern is the tolerance it has for lesser-quality clocks and how they might degrade its otherwise stellar recording performance.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

That answers my question. This news is truly delightful!
(For some reason I had blinders on when looking at those AES inputs, thinking 1ch each even though I know better.)

Now the question is, how will the unit perform being clocked by an external ADC? I assume that it must sync the internal ADCs to AES IN, because there is no W/C out to master an external 2 or 4ch ADC. Is this right? What performance changes, if any, in jitter performance can be expected when the internal clock is slaved? For example, is there jitter management of AES INs, of slaved internal ADCs, or both?

The Nagra VI does have WC in and out. They are on the DB-15 extension. I had Redco make a cable for me that has BNC WC in, BNC WC out, XLR-3M AES 3/4 out, XLR-3M AES 5/6 out, and DIN MIDI. From the manual, here are all of the menu options for clocking...

Selection
MASTER
MAS +0.1% MAS -0.1% EXT 44.1 EXT 48 EXT 88.2 EXT 96 AES A 44.1 AES A48 AES A 88.2 AES A96 AES B 44.1 AES B48 AES B 88.2 AES B96 PAL
NTSC NTSC 60 Hz

Machine is set to be “master”, all clocks are synchronised using the internal stratum III high stability crystal. As master but accelerated by 0.1% for NTSC applications As master but slowed down by 0.1% for NTSC applications
External word clock on the extension connector at 44.1 kHz External word clock on the extension connector at 48 kHz External word clock on the extension connector at 88.2 kHz External word clock on the extension connector at 96 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 44.1 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 48 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 88.2 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 96 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 44.1 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 48 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 88.2 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 96 kHz External video reference is on the extension connector in PAL 25 fps External video reference is on the extension connector in NTSC 29.97 fps External video reference is on the extension connector in NTSC 30 fps

[MichaelPatrick]

tvisser, you can tell I don't own one, so thanks for filling my vacuum of knowledge.

So the question now becomes, how does a user ensure that any external ADC employed does not degrade the native performance of this fine machine?

Use W/C out to master the external ADC?
Use the external ADC clock and the Nagra manages jitter automatically?
etc...

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

The Nagra VI does have WC in and out. They are on the DB-15 extension. I had Redco make a cable for me that has BNC WC in, BNC WC out, XLR-3M AES 3/4 out, XLR-3M AES 5/6 out, and DIN MIDI. From the manual, here are all of the menu options for clocking...

Selection
MASTER
MAS +0.1% MAS -0.1% EXT 44.1 EXT 48 EXT 88.2 EXT 96 AES A 44.1 AES A48 AES A 88.2 AES A96 AES B 44.1 AES B48 AES B 88.2 AES B96 PAL
NTSC NTSC 60 Hz

Machine is set to be “master”, all clocks are synchronised using the internal stratum III high stability crystal. As master but accelerated by 0.1% for NTSC applications As master but slowed down by 0.1% for NTSC applications
External word clock on the extension connector at 44.1 kHz External word clock on the extension connector at 48 kHz External word clock on the extension connector at 88.2 kHz External word clock on the extension connector at 96 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 44.1 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 48 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 88.2 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “A” at 96 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 44.1 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 48 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 88.2 kHz External ref to be used is arriving on the digital input “B” at 96 kHz External video reference is on the extension connector in PAL 25 fps External video reference is on the extension connector in NTSC 29.97 fps External video reference is on the extension connector in NTSC 30 fps

I was just about to say this but you beat me to it.

I had discussed this with John Owens ages ago.

You set the Nagra VI to Master - take the WC out and connect to whatever and these feed AES3 back to the Nagra VI. All clocked to the Nagra.


Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I was just about to say this but you beat me to it.

I had discussed this with John Owens ages ago.

You set the Nagra VI to Master - take the WC out and connect to whatever and these feed AES3 back to the Nagra VI. All clocked to the Nagra.


Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz

Thanks. All clear now. What a great upgrade!
So now who's getting a portable ADC for their Nagra VI (i.e. Benchmark ADC-1, Lavry AD10, Mytek STEREO96, ...)?

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by meltemi

If you do not use the L/R mix, you can record up to 8 ISO tracks:

8tr (analog/digital): 4 mic/line inputs + 2 2ch AES inputs
7tr (analog/digital): 4 mic/line inputs + 1 line input + 1 2ch AES input
6tr (analog only): 4 mic/line inputs + 2 line inputs

This is good news. Regarding mixed mode recording (analog + digital), even though clocking might be sorted out, ie NVI clocked from a higher quality A/D or the external A/D clocked from the NVI, surely there must be different delays (latency) to the sound going to track between the NVI and the external A/D. This will need compensation in post.

Can anyone comment? Has anyone done this?

[MichaelPatrick]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

This is good news. Regarding mixed mode recording (analog + digital), even though clocking might be sorted out, ie NVI clocked from a higher quality A/D or the external A/D clocked from the NVI, surely there must be different delays (latency) to the sound going to track between the NVI and the external A/D. This will need compensation in post.

Can anyone comment? Has anyone done this?

Great question.

[David Spearritt]

My finger is hovering over the BuyNow button. I still have/had some reservations:

1. Needed 8 channels, now fixed!
2. Concerned about future of available storage with the IDE interface to HDD, IDE very much dead in the computer world, would prefer SATA.
3. Need 4 AES3 out, to route 8 digital channels to backup recorder.
4. Waiting for CHF to drop a bit more against the AUD.

[Suda Badri]

Ex-cit-ing!

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

This is good news. Regarding mixed mode recording (analog + digital), even though clocking might be sorted out, ie NVI clocked from a higher quality A/D or the external A/D clocked from the NVI, surely there must be different delays (latency) to the sound going to track between the NVI and the external A/D. This will need compensation in post.

Can anyone comment? Has anyone done this?

As John Willet already pointed out: use the Nagra VI as master clock (WDCLK out on DB-15).

I could not find any specs about latency (group delay) in any of the datasheets of A/D manufacturers (or Nagra).

But consider this:
Sample length at 96k is 104.17 ns. Latencies in similar A/D chips might be quite similar, so the difference between two A/D's will be most likely less than 1 Sample, unless you do some additional heavy digital processing (e.g. SRC, compressor).

[meltemi]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

2. Concerned about future of available storage with the IDE interface to HDD, IDE very much dead in the computer world, would prefer SATA.

IDE is still in demand for industrial and embedded applications.
Western Digital continues to make 2,5" IDE harddisks.
Transcend also offers IDE SSD's (Nagra seems to have successfully used them in the Nagra VI for developing its software).

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

3. Need 4 AES3 out, to route 8 digital channels to backup recorder.

Only 3 AES3 hardware outputs available. BUT you can use the internal copy function for backup to CF (up to 8ch, running in the background).

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by meltemi

IDE is still in demand for industrial and embedded applications.
Western Digital continues to make 2,5" IDE harddisks.

Of this, I am aware. Samsung also. But for how long?

Transcend also offers IDE SSD's (Nagra seems to have successfully used them in the Nagra VI for developing its software).

But not Intel, Patriot, Corsair, Kingston, and many others. Transcend and SuperTalent seem to make them. I could not take seriously a company called SuperTalent. It's still a worry.

Only 3 AES3 hardware outputs available. BUT you can use the internal copy function for backup to CF (up to 8ch, running in the background).

Good point, perhaps one doesn't need a backup recorder in this case.

[panatrope]

Originally Posted by meltemi

But consider this:
Sample length at 96k is 104.17 ns. Latencies in similar A/D chips might be quite similar, so the difference between two A/D's will be most likely less than 1 Sample, unless you do some additional heavy digital processing (e.g. SRC, compressor).

"Latency" for ADCs is largely determined by the number of samples required for the decimation filter in Delta/Sigma ADCs and this varies between manufacturer and designs and can range from less than 10 to more than 20. Then there is the framing delay in the AES (or maybe ADAT) stream. But as these usually tend to be less than 1 mS (in which time sound travels 30cm) then microphone placement accuracy is a more critical factor (and assuming one is not unwise enough to use one direct and one AES circuit in a highly correlated application like a co-incident or near-co-incident pair.

The only area this would become highly critical is in say a 5 channel surround application. In which case it would be a bloody good idea to buy the two extra channels of Nagra amplification (ie., the external Nagra VI preamp pair promised some time this year) straight into the line input and sampled by the internal ADCs. But until they get 5.1 surround onto FM (or even worse DAB+) I personally don't expect to lose much sleep over it ...

[Plush]

Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick

tvisser, you can tell I don't own one, so thanks for filling my vacuum of knowledge.

So the question now becomes, how does a user ensure that any external ADC employed does not degrade the native performance of this fine machine?

Use W/C out to master the external ADC?
Use the external ADC clock and the Nagra manages jitter automatically?
etc...

Jitter is never added in a digital transfer or a digital feed. Jitter is only created at the a/d stage and then, what there is of it, it stays in the signal.

I don't know what jitter management is. One can minimize jitter when sending to a d/a by using something like a Meridian 518/618 box or use a d/a with a re-clocking circuit.

Also re: clocks---the clock either works and locks or it does not. If the clock is no good then there will be no sound. There really aren't degrees of "goodness" of a clock. It either works or it is broken.

The NVI behaves the same as any other destination when using external clocking. It will always warn you if something is mis-set and it has warning messages that tell you the nature of the problem.