Del McCoury All Star Bluegrass Celebration DVD - 1 mic?

[william_cross]

Old thread, but I felt compelled to offer a few insights on the single mic trend in bluegrass.

In the 40s and 50s, that was they way most bluegrass bands performed and recorded. Lester and Earl were the first to use multiple mics (three). From the mid 60s through the mid 80s, most bands performed live with individual mics, usually SM58s or similar.

Sound systems at alot of festivals were just downright bad. The problem was, if you hired a pro audio guy, he usually knew nothing about bluegrass and tried to mix as the band played. Monitor sends were hard to tweak. In defense of the sound guy, most festivals had 8 or 9 bands playing 45 minute sets with no breaks for proper sound checks. The sound check consisted of about 30 seconds of "check 12" and then let er rip.

The man who is soley responsible for the one mic trend is Doyle Lawson. In the late 80s/early 90s he got completely fed up with the awful sound that most festival promoters provided and went to the one mic setup. Many people in bluegrass try to rewrite the history and say Doyle was returning to the roots of the music, or was doing this as showmanship. The truth was he couldn't take it no more. These days, it is rare to see anything but the one mic approach. Some (like Del) have modified the approach by adding a second "one mic" - but it is still called a one mic approach.

What always fried me when playing those shows back then was how they mic'ed the bass. They would wrap a towel around a 58 and wedge it in the tailpiece. That's why alot of bands went to electric bass (before the one mic trend). That and ease of travel. I think the one mic trend is also responsible for bringing back the upright bass - you can hear it now.

Anyway, old thread - sorry.

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by william_cross

Old thread, but I felt compelled to offer a few insights on the single mic trend in bluegrass.

In the 40s and 50s, that was they way most bluegrass bands performed and recorded. Lester and Earl were the first to use multiple mics (three). From the mid 60s through the mid 80s, most bands performed live with individual mics, usually SM58s or similar.

Sound systems at alot of festivals were just downright bad. The problem was, if you hired a pro audio guy, he usually knew nothing about bluegrass and tried to mix as the band played. Monitor sends were hard to tweak. In defense of the sound guy, most festivals had 8 or 9 bands playing 45 minute sets with no breaks for proper sound checks. The sound check consisted of about 30 seconds of "check 12" and then let er rip.

The man who is soley responsible for the one mic trend is Doyle Lawson. In the late 80s/early 90s he got completely fed up with the awful sound that most festival promoters provided and went to the one mic setup. Many people in bluegrass try to rewrite the history and say Doyle was returning to the roots of the music, or was doing this as showmanship. The truth was he couldn't take it no more. These days, it is rare to see anything but the one mic approach. Some (like Del) have modified the approach by adding a second "one mic" - but it is still called a one mic approach.

What always fried me when playing those shows back then was how they mic'ed the bass. They would wrap a towel around a 58 and wedge it in the tailpiece. That's why alot of bands went to electric bass (before the one mic trend). That and ease of travel. I think the one mic trend is also responsible for bringing back the upright bass - you can hear it now.

Anyway, old thread - sorry.

Actually a "stuff" mic is common today. Any upright bass that does not have a pickup normally gets a stuff mic.

At any given bluegrass festival where I run sound, I would bet I use a stuff mic on well over half the basses.

When using a single mic, the bass can be weak unless the player is right next to the mic so most single mic bands use either mics mounted on their uprights, pickups or the stuff mic.

[Teddy Ray]

must be a west coast thing...

Ive been involved in bluegrass in one form or another since 1987 or so..

id say a good 80 percent of the groups ive worked with(recorded/sung with)do the one mic thing!

[edva]

I've mixed live shows for Del, Rhonda, Doyle, and others. Del was using a 4033, sometimes two, and for big shows, a DI on the bass. I know the 4033 is not considered a high-end mic, but I much prefer it over the slightly cleaner sounding but much brighter and more sibilant Shure models (32 etc.).

The reason these people sound so good is the musicianship, singing, and listening skills they have developed to a fine art over many years. You can't fake that, and it needs no hype.

[william_cross]

I play live bluegrass quite often. Many times there is the single mic, which I like for the reasons stated above. What seems to be not as consistent is monitor quality. One band I played with used no monitors at all (one mic) and I got used to that, and it worked for that group, but more often than not, the monitors are either to low in volume to hear or there is constant feedback or boom. Any tips on monitors when using a single (or pair) LDCs?

[edva]

Originally Posted by william_cross

I play live bluegrass quite often. Many times there is the single mic, which I like for the reasons stated above. What seems to be not as consistent is monitor quality. One band I played with used no monitors at all (one mic) and I got used to that, and it worked for that group, but more often than not, the monitors are either to low in volume to hear or there is constant feedback or boom. Any tips on monitors when using a single (or pair) LDCs?

Every situation is different, because every venue and equipment list is different. But, in very general terms, the monitor wedge, if used, should be positioned relative to the null spot of the microphone(s), and EQ should be used to notch out feedback until maximum headroom is achieved. Soundcheck should always include the FOH speakers, and levels/EQ/delay should be set with the entire system running at maximum intended show volume. Then, backed down a little. HTH, IMHO, YMMV

[philper]

Here's the Del McCoury Band mic list for their set at the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass Festival in SF on 10/3/10 (from the FOH guys that day):

>Del McCoury vocal/main band vocal..... Neumann BCM 140 * * * *

Fiddle/mandolin ...... *Neumann BCM 140

Banjo ...... Audio Technica 4033 * (placed lower)

Guitar *(Del) *...... Audio Technica 4033 * (placed lower)

Alternate/backup mics for guitar/banjo..Shure 57 x2

Bass usually has DI to board which is not ideal for us. * *Band will bring own mic for bass to use on the day. <<<<

Sounded great. The band worked BOTH the main (Neumann) mics with the "in and out" choreography thing.

phil p*

[Blast9]

Phil - this is golden! thumbsup

BCM 140 or 104 ?
What was the bass mic?

[william_cross]

Originally Posted by edva

Every situation is different, because every venue and equipment list is different. But, in very general terms, the monitor wedge, if used, should be positioned relative to the null spot of the microphone(s), and EQ should be used to notch out feedback until maximum headroom is achieved. Soundcheck should always include the FOH speakers, and levels/EQ/delay should be set with the entire system running at maximum intended show volume. Then, backed down a little. HTH, IMHO, YMMV

Thanks. Good info. I'm thinking of packing an eq and monitor amp from now on. Unfortunatley, quite a few gigs I play have "less than stellar" sound gear. Most of the time, I can help out and set the sound myself if the promoter and/or sound folks are good natured and/or know me. I always have trouble with the monitors. More times than not, there is no monitor eq.

It's a lot better than it used to be - anyone remember the Shure Vocal Master PA? At least those things are long gone.

[Sean Sullivan]

Del and the boys still uses the same microphone set up live (for the record, they use Neumann BCM 104). The bass is just D.I'd. The Audio Technica microphones may be AT4040's...Ronnie doesn't bring them to the studio so I can't tell you for sure. I do know for a fact they are not AT4050's or AT4060's

In the studio Del sings through his own U47 he purchased from Blackbird after trying out several on his voice. On the last record, Ronnie was mic'd with a Neumann KM84i, Robbie's banjo was a CAD M179, Del's guitar was a AKG C451B with hi pass filter engaged, Jason's fiddle was a Shure BG 4.1, and Alan's bass was a SM7B and the DI (for safety). Some of that may have changed throughout the course of the recording "Family Circle", but that was the "standard" set up. I think the last record they did around one microphone was "The Mountain" with Steve Earle.

If you'd like to hear a recording of Del live using his stage set up, you can go to soundcloud.com/seansullivanmusic and "Hello Lonely" and "Sweet Mountain Soul" No overdubs or punches.

[GZsound]

Originally Posted by william_cross

Thanks. Good info. I'm thinking of packing an eq and monitor amp from now on. Unfortunatley, quite a few gigs I play have "less than stellar" sound gear. Most of the time, I can help out and set the sound myself if the promoter and/or sound folks are good natured and/or know me. I always have trouble with the monitors. More times than not, there is no monitor eq.

It's a lot better than it used to be - anyone remember the Shure Vocal Master PA? At least those things are long gone.

I can't imagine what you would do with a monitor amp and an EQ.

When I run sound, I have 31 band EQ on all my monitor sends. That rarely helps when the band uses an LD mic.

What we need to understand here is that an LD mic is not designed to be used as the only mic for a musical group, especially at an outdoor venue. Most LD mics pick up everything, and that includes any monitor feed.

The most simple solution I have found if the band insists on using an LD mic and monitors is to use two monitors as side fills and point them slightly behind the single mic. But getting adequate volume is still difficult.

I have had problems with guitar players with big belly's that don't sing loud enough to get over their guitar volume, upright bass that takes over the mic and can't be controlled, players that stand too far away from the mic to be heard and problems with acoustically crappy stages where the reflections are almost as loud as the musicians themselves.

As has been said, it requires musicians that know how to use the mic to make it work.

I have a bluegrass gospel show coming up in January in a church where the EAW speakers are mounted in the ceiling, pointing down and are actually behind the band. Anyone want to try and get a single LD mic to sound good with that going on? I don't care how good the band is, the volume is going to be kept very low..period. And no monitors. If they can't hear those speakers blasting into the back of their heads they're deaf.

[Scott Church]

I know this is a crazy old post...but, I know sometimes one-mic can be a bit thin...due to the lack of proximity. Would using compression help (does anyone use compression for one-mic) or would it just create other problems?

[boojum]

I speak from limited experience and a singular situation: a table surrounded by players, mic in the middle. I run MS/Blumlein - it is the same depending on whether your "front" is between the two front mics or just one - and then put SAM's AM-Munition Comp/Lim Classical medium on the output bus. It works pretty well. I would imagine it would be pretty good in a more ordinary setup. That's just my way, I am sure there are better ones.

[GZsound]

Putting compression on a single mic in a live situation does not help. The mic is basically "dumb" and doesn't know what to pick up, so it picks up the loudest sound louder than the weakest sound.

Having the artist or artists know how to work a LD mic is critical. It isn't really proximity effect like getting more bass in a dynamic by getting closer, it's just a simple fact that closer equals louder and farther equals quieter.

[edva]

Originally Posted by Scott Church

I know this is a crazy old post...but, I know sometimes one-mic can be a bit thin...due to the lack of proximity. Would using compression help (does anyone use compression for one-mic) or would it just create other problems?

The source is by far the biggest determinant of sound quality with the one-mic set up, however, I do use compression, to even things out a bit. However, with a bad source on a bad sounding stage, it may not help much.
You are correct about the lack of proximity, the key here is to spend extra time getting the system/room tuned extremely well, especially in the lower register. This requires precise equalization, phase, etc. Then, you can get a lot more bass and low end in your mix without feedback.
The proximity effect does naturally make solo's sound bigger and closer, and background parts sound like background, if the artist understands how to work the mic.

[Rolo 46]

I record acoustic folk rock, live to stereo with one MS fig 8/fig 8 array.
The mic is central and the vocalist is a couple of feet from rear
The drummer plays a full kit with brushes and is 4 feet from the front
The 5 string upright bass is 4 feet to the left and an electric gtr amp on a chair is 4 feet to the right.
We record in a theatre stage,gym and factory spaces.
It quick and remarkably effective
They love it, no cans.
Self balance,natural acoustics
Needs very little compression or eq.

[GZsound]

Speaking of the Neumann BCM 104 mic, the bluegrass band I travel with was playing a festival in Northern California a couple of summers ago. The sound contractor had a BCM 104 mic for any bands that used a single mic.

The national band before our group used the Neumann mic. At that time our band was using three LD condenser mics.

We set up our mics and did our set. The sound company owner came over to me on the mixer and asked me what mics we were using. He said they sounded so much better than his Neumann BCM.

I told him I hated to see a grown man cry, but we were using three CAD M177 mics that cost me $80 each. He wrote down the information and said he was going to order some the next week..

I typically use a CAD M179 at all my festivals now and have yet to get any complaints and the bands that know me don't even bother to bring their AT or Shure mics with them. And when it rains and gets dusty, I can afford to trash the mic....my "good" mics stay in the studio.