nagra/stellavox

[audiothings]

greetings!

i've gotten very interested in the nagra 4s and stellavox sp9 1/4" field recorders.

i have NO experience with analog recorders (they were out of the scene by the time i got in), and here in chennai, theres no studio with an analog recorder. but i'm sick and tired of making music with computers... have been looking at starting an audiophile indian acoustic music recording label as a side project from my regular studio scene. Find great rooms and capture great performances - m/s or blumlein with an aea r 88.

so, my questions:

* how do they sound, when compared to non-portable tape machines?
* will the tapes recorded on them playback in conventional machines which mastering studios will have?
* are the built in mic pres good enough?
* are there severe maintenance issues? (i hear that they are very robust)
* in this particular combination (with the r88) am i likely to have to deal with a lot of noise

any and all experiences, caveats and warnings are appreciated...

thanks,
jai shankar.

[Remoteness]

This thread may prove that we don’t have any old time film sound engineers lurking here…

I had experience with analog recorders but I haven’t played (or worked) with Nagras a lot. Back in the day, we usually hired or worked with film sound folks that specialized in that field. So, my analog field recorder experience is very limited.

With that said, let’s see how I can screw this up for you

I must say, there is a beauty to recording analog @ 15 IPS. I loved that sound.
Nagras sound great but it depends on what machine you’re comparing them to.
I never A/B’d a Studer with a Nagra – I wish someone could weigh in on this matter.

From what I understand, tapes recorded on a stereo Nagra will playback correctly on conventional machines.

Sorry, I don’t know enough about the mic pres to comment on them.

Nagras are indeed very robust.

Man, I wish I could have been more helpful… Maybe someone could shed some more light on this topic.

[dolo72]

I was trained as a film sound recordist/sound designer largely on nagras mainly 4.2.mono and 4s. They are perfect for stereo recording on location and would be my first choice for any stereo music recording. They sound very flat i.e. you cant really crank them up for huge amounts of tape compression but they still have alot more 'reel' headroom compared to most digital stuff ive used (even with good convertors-dcs,mytek etc). You get off tape monitoring and a limiter which is pretty transparent as are the mic amps. It just has unbalanced outs(bannana plugs) but if your doing audiophile stuff then its all good. If you get an older model then it may only have T powered mic inputs which would obviously restrict you if youre using the inbuilt mic amps. If you have the budget then try to get one which has been serviced or look at getting it checked over and set up as part of your budget, i would say this with any tape machine. It can be set up for the newer high output tapes GP9 etc but I've always used it with Emtec 468, some of the best foley fx and percussion i've recorded was on a nagra with 468 and km84i's - 'Supernatural'. If you want really thick 1/2 inch sound then get two mono 4.2 and run then at the same time, just a sync clap at the beginning. I cant recommend these machines highly enough

[dolo72]

Just to add- you will have to use the nagramaster eq recording at 15 ips on a nagra( the top end can get too sharp with nab had problems with Schoeps mics and nab@15ips) so the playback machine(if its not the Nagra) will have to have a seperate nagramaster eq box on the outputs to playback properly. I think anyone who services nagras can make you one its not too difficult. Compared to Studers hmmm which Studers? My a807 has more headroom on the input and a more top end centered sound and a bit quieter in comparison nagra sound a bit smaller but also a bit more natural/less hifi. Ideally you would playback on another machine to get a decent and compatible output level. I think you might need to use another mic amp with your ribbons the nagra has a dynamic mic input but ive only really used it with condensors so I cant say. If you get it matched thought I think ribbons and a nagra would be the bussiness

[Remoteness]

dolo72,

Thanks a lot for your thoughts and enlightenment!

[audiothings]

thanks remoteness and dolo 72 for your info. thanks dolo72 specifically for your info regarding the nagramaster eq. FYI both machines are still being manufactured, if the links in my first post are to be believed as is.

after waiting for responses for a coupla days, i posted the same question over at psw with a few responses... here is the link.

also, theres a previous thread from here which discusses the stellavox machine to an extent, here it is.

thanks again guys.

jai shankar.

edit: FWIW, just got a mail from the stellavox guy... he sells reconditioned units and not new ones, but claims that all spare parts are in stock/production. 1/4" machine goes for around us$3K++

[Jim vanBergen]

Used Stellavox for 3k might be a good value. I did production audio for films in my early years, and it was always Nagra; and always full-track mono @ 7.5ips, with my DAT doing backups, stereo ambiance & room tone recordings.

I gotta say, the Nagras are robust as hell, and precision tools. I always used a mixer on the front end, sometimes a Shure (eh) and often a Cooper (yeah!). These days you can get high quality front end mixers for much less than the Cooper but I'd still want something with good phantom instead of the A/B power supply, though you can get great deals on Sennheiser AB 416s, new they are about $100 cheaper than P48s.

Who does good Nagra service in the USA? I used to know...back in 1991.

Please let us know what you decide to finally do? For a while I kept seeing old Nagras sold on Ebay, I wonder where they were going.
Best, JvB

[Plush]

Nagra: The Polish verb---"to record"
Stellavox--"literally, "Star Voice" (as in *stars* in the sky)

We have been using and selling Nagra and Stellavox for 25 years.
We still use them because they were good then and they are still good now.

The Nagra IV-S is not made anymore--but there is little reason to buy new anyway since the only thing that wears are heads, brakes and occassionally they need an oiling.
You can buy a used IV-S and have it reconditioned at the Swiss factory for around $1500. This machine can run 7" reels as standard and 10.5" reels with a QGB adaptor.

The Stellavox SP-9 is not really made anymore either. However at
www.jpgaudio.com you will find the best Stellavox man in the world, Jean-Pierre Gurtner, who can track down a good machine for you. Alternatively buy a good SP-8 which is the exact same machine and have Gurtner turn it into an SM-8 (music master machine of top top quality--this would be a 15ips only machine. You can also run a he******* that allows you to switch between 7.5ips and 15ips.

THE STELLAVOX ONLY RUNS 5" REELS AS STANDARD (7.5 minutes at 15)
Use the Stellavox big reel adaptor for 7" or 10.5" reels.

Now on to the sound quality issues and mic amps.
Both machines depend on high flux levels and one needs to use modern tapes to accomodate these levels. (+9=520nWb/m) GP9 and the upcoming re-introduction of EMTEC 900 both would work well.

Sound quality is excellent for both machines with sound and circuitry equal or better than any Studer. Stellavox uses all discrete componentry and the signal path is very short because the record electronics are IN the record head module.
I prefer Stellavox for absolute fidelity and I prefer Nagra for convenience.

Using an R88 ribbon mic with either unit is NOT recommended because the mic amps are optimized for between 30-60 dB of gain. One would need an external mic amp for ribbon mics.

The pres on the Nagra are very good as are the Stellavox pres
The point is that both machines can be battery powered and these mic pre's are optimized to work well that way.

The recording format for both machines is using a head with 2.75mm track width--so called "butterfly" heads and these are compatible with all two track playback machines. For ultimate fidelity and better signal to noise, play back on the same machine that made the recording.

Maintenance is always an issue with any mechanical system and these are no different. Most all of the parts for both machines are still being made.

With all the film going on in India, there should be good repair people there.
I know that Nagra has people there.

My recommendation for you is to get a Nagra IV-S.

I say this with hesitation as I believe that the Stellavox is a better sounding recorder. For you, Nagra is best for parts, ability to run 7" reels and for service in India.

Best from Chicago,
Plush

[Plush]

Correction to my post above
The web site for Stellavox is:
www.audioprojpg.com

thankyasomuch!

[Remoteness]

Plush,

Thank you for an excellent post. This one's great for all the archive hounds out there!!!

...And thank you for making the Remote Possibilities forum a better place to be!
Helping widening our audience base and broadening our discussions here is a wonderful thing.

Keep up the great posts.

[Plush]

Thanks, Steve

. . .but you da man!--and this forum is a great place
I've been doing it a long time and I enjoy passing on my experience.

Keep on pushin. . .
Cordially,
Plush

[audiothings]

dear plush!!

i have been trying to get through to you for a LONG time now...

in my travels around the www, i have found nobody more appropriate than you with experience in my chosen region of audio recording... PM me anytime and i'll only be too glad to get through with my questions. Thanks for a great post!!

best,

jai shankar.

[Tibbon]

I was forced to use a Nagra on a film shoot a few weeks ago with a not so great shotgun mic. I didn't do the transfer myself, but listening back to it- we have a TON of noise. The dynamic range and (lack of) headroom aren't what i'm used to.

Perhaps the mic'ing of the actors was poor, but everything sounded slightly distorted and really thin.

[pvanscherpe]

Nagra's have great headroom, if you thought the headroom was too limited something was done incorrectly! A good repair man in Northern California is Dan Dugan in San Francisco. He is an authorized Nagra service technician.

The problem with these recorder is the now high cost of analog tape at near $18 per 7" reel. Good sources for these recorders is trewaudio.com they offer a warrantee for their units. Buying one on Ebay may lead to expensive repair bills. Items like a new capstan can run 50% of the cost of a used recorder. Getting one of these units serviced and equalized and balanced for you stock will run $350. You might want to consider a hard drive recorder such as the Sound Devices 722 or 744T.

[Coolstuff]

I may be onw of those "Old Time" guys steve referred to, though I'll drag him in too - back in the early days, he & I used to do many analog recordings together.

I've used Nagras for film /TV work. They are great machines. Impeccably egineered, both mechanically and electrically - though they do have some interesting quirks, using banana plugs for inputs & outputs, etc, they make great recordings when calibrated properly and lovingly fed and cared for.

Plush seems to be an authority and offers great information & advise. However, I have to question the continued availability of suitable quality tape. There are only one or two factories left on the planet, and one of them already closed up shop for a while.

Also, how do you feel about being limited to to short rolls of tape?

I have to ask, With the common availability and high quality of hard disk recorders - such as the 8 or 10 channel Zaxcom DEVA, the 2 or 4 channel Sound Devices 700 series, etc., why invest on a doomed medium?

[Plush]

I am glad to see continued posts in this thread. . .

I don't look upon analog recording as a "doomed format"--instead I see it as a
parrallel format to the proliferating hard disk machines. That said, it IS a specialist pursuit to a degree. At the present time, in media costs, it is 20 times as expensive to record on analog tape in comparison to a hard disk machine. Before tape prices went up it was 10 times as expensive.

Quantegy is back up and delivering tape. 456 and GP9 are suitable for running on
1/4" and 1/2" machines--Studer, Nagra, Stellavox. One benefits by aligning the machine with an IEC (CCIR) equalization for a quieter "velvety" background hiss.

Soon, RMGI, the Dutch tape company, will be bringing the EMTEC formulations back to the US. This means that EMTEC 911, 900 and 468 will be available again.
www.rmgi-usa.com

ATR Magnetics in Pennsylvania will also be debuting a series of new analog tapes in 2006.

On Nagras, use the QGB (Quatre Grande Bobine) adaptor to run 10.5 inch reels.
Use the 7" cover on the IV-S to assure smooth running of your standard 7" reels.
On the Stellavox, find the easily available large reel adaptor called the ABR85.

There is still a LOT of demand for analog tape outside of 1st. world countries such as the USA. For example, in India and South America. Many major label recordings are mastered to 1/2" today--then the cd is made from that tape.

Analog recording imparts a different sound than digital and, for example, in string orchestra recording we adjudge it to be the finest sound. Ditto for Jazz recording.
Even in straight ahead piano recording and orchestra work, many high level practitioners are going "back" to analog tape.

Analog multi-tracks that sold new for $30,000-$60,000 are available on Ebay for $2500.00.
Used Nagra IV-S are available for $1500 and only require another $1000.00 of repair to be functioning at "as new" specification. Be sure and send your Nagra to
the Swiss factory for repair.

Hard disk machines are excellent but they do not provide the same "sound" as an
optimized analog machine. This is not a debate about which is better since, clearly, the resulting sound is different. Analog is another palette, another color.

That is my argument.

[Coolstuff]

Excellent! I did say doomed medium, not format, and I am happy to hear that tape will continue to be available from several sources.

Analog recording definitely yields a recording with significant differences than (with certain advantages over) digital recording.

It is a specialist format (as if it ever wasn't!), and is not for everyone. Transports need great care, heads need cleaning aligning, and replacing. Electronics need continued calibration checking which requires test equipment, and if you change tape formulas, then the machine requires bias and EQ recalibration.

But for anyone who is up to the task, you can set yourself apart from the pack!

[KostasM]

I thought it would be good to share this video:

http://www.reel2reel.tv/ADC/___quelletpreview.wmv

The music was all recorded with Stellavox. I'm still working hard to findd [or design] an alternative, but the sound of exceptional analogue is VERY hard to beat at ANY price.

rgds

Kostas

[xxm]

Thanks Kostas!!!

You really did an amazing job.

Only such a genius as Mr Georges Quellet could not only developp one of the best ever recorder but just make his own bathroom photographic emulsion during free time...

But I am very pleased someone like you took the time to ask him to speak about his machines. really fascinating video.

Thanks,
Vincent

[Remoteness]

Excellent video clip -- Thanks!

[Plush]

Good interview with a genius.
Thank you, Kostas!

It was my great pleasure to work closely with Georges in the mid 1980's.
Also critical in the success was another character pictured in the interview, Jean-Pierre Gurtner.


I was the US importer for Stellavox and we spent many an hour hearing some of the same history and stories. Georges Quellet was very far ahead of his time.

Stellavox is still the best analog recorder.

[Poorsche]

Plush help me... i acquaired a Nagra III a few months ago and after the romance i realised it's way below optimum caliberation not to mention running condition.

How much would the cost estimate be to put this thing up and goin again? Would it be better to sell it and get a Nagra D or Stellavox SP 8? How about Sony's TC-510-2 or APR 2003?

Thank you very much.

[Plush]

Repairing a Nagra 3 is not worth the money, so just sell it and put your money towards a Nagra IV-S or Stellavox SP-8.


A Nagra 3 is really quite old and many of them saw service in submarines. The Nagra factory has stopped supplying parts for Nagra 3 and the sound, according to today's standards, is poor.

On the other hand, parts for the Nagra IV-S and Stellavox are still available as is good service.

Don't get a Nagra D as tape is no longer made for that machine. Don't get any Sony machines either. Don't get them because a used Nagra or Stellavox is the real thing.
Bias your machine for RMGI SM911 or SM900 and call it a day.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

My recommendation for you is to get a Nagra IV-S.

I would agree with this - not that the Stellavox is bad, it isn't; but because the Nagra was the industry standard and there are a lot more out there. That means that repair and service would be much easier for you as time goes on.

I used to work for the UK importer of Nagra (many years ago) and know the Nagra UK people personally.

Nagra pre-amps are superb, always have been.

Excellent machine.

The Nagra and Stellevox are probably pretty equal in quality - but I would go for the Nagra because of the better availability of service and spares.

[Poorsche]

A million thanks Plush and John... your kind advise is certainly appreciated. Much obliged...

[John Willett]

Actually - I have just ordered the new NAGRA VI - I have been trying it out as I am writing a review for "Line Up" in the UK and liked it so much I am buying one.

[Plush]

I am tempted to order a Nagra VI too, although I think that the Metric halo 8 channel box is much more versatile. It has a mixer with all kinds of plug-ins and effects and the routing is anything to anything else. The drawback, of course, is that it uses a computer as its control surface. Smartly, the NVI is self contained.

I have bought one of each Nagra made since 1981, so it is tempting.

Best wishes to John with his new Nagra. What color are you getting?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

What color are you getting?

Probably the standard grey - though the menu controls may show up better in the dark on the dark red one (I will decide when I see the final colour).

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by Plush

I am tempted to order a Nagra VI too, although I think that the Metric halo 8 channel box is much more versatile. It has a mixer with all kinds of plug-ins and effects and the routing is anything to anything else. The drawback, of course, is that it uses a computer as its control surface. Smartly, the NVI is self contained.

I have bought one of each Nagra made since 1981, so it is tempting.

My sentiments as well. I am tempted, but I recently purchased a TC SK48 and laptop for the same reasons as above, wonderful mixer, superb plugins, excellent sonic quality and so versatile.

I am waiting for my turn of the demo VI and then can see if its going to be useful. I have taken the Nagra V to a 3 day classical music festival for the last 5 years, but this year it maybe supplanted by the SK48 and lappy. Times are changing.

[loujudson]

"Who does good Nagra service in the USA? I used to know...back in 1991."

Dan Dugan Sound Design: Automatic Mixers, Nagra Service, Nature Recording, CD Mastering, CD Production for Dance Performance, DVD Authoring - excellent work, nice guy, the West Coast offical service person and still in business,.

Lou