nagra/stellavox

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by KostasM

I thought it would be good to share this video:

http://www.reel2reel.tv/ADC/___quelletpreview.wmv

The music was all recorded with Stellavox. I'm still working hard to findd [or design] an alternative, but the sound of exceptional analogue is VERY hard to beat at ANY price.

rgds

Kostas

Looked at the video and curiosity made me search around a bit. The Stellavox book that was on your website, now seems to be out of print. Do you know of any other way to purchase one, new or used?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Plush

Best wishes to John with his new Nagra. What color are you getting?

Correction to my earlier post.

Now I have seen the Burgundy Red version on the website I will be getting this one.

One reason is the contrast in colour - the black buttons on the Slate Grey one get a little difficult to see in dim conditions and will be much clearer on the Burgundy Red one - and it looks pretty posh as well.

Details HERE, by the way.

[Plush]

I agree that the Red Nagra VI is de pimp machine!

I've also ordered a red one.

Nagrists Unite.

[tsvisser]

In the U.S., who did you order it from? Are street prices the same as MSRP?

[Plush]

I ordered from NAGRA USA in Nashville. (Franklin, TN) TEL (615) 726-5191

The machine costs $ 7595.00+ accessories (no discount)

Call and talk to Nancy Belt.

[tsvisser]

Yep, that was the quote that I got a from her a couple of months ago... just curious if the street prices were still in line with that. Such hard decisions, I will definitely buy something before the end of the month, if Sound Device's 788t does not support 24/88.2 and 24/96 by that time, I will have no choice but to go with the Swiss machine, although it is going to hurt my wallet. I probably will go with the slate grey, although I think the red is better looking, I might want to appear a bit more discreet with my equipment on tv/film locations.

[Plush]

Yes, I know, it's a difficult choice.

Nagra has announced that the NVI will have a price increase soon because of the state of the US dollar. I wanted to get in on the machine before the price increase.

Apparently the price increase is expected to be substantial.

[John Willett]

I have just written a review on the NAGRA VI - I went for the burgundy red version mainly because of the contrast in the colour against the buttons (in dim light the buttons are almost the same colour as the slate grey version).

I am going for the larger capacity battery (same physical size) as it gives 12-15 hours use - use all day and charge over-night).

The latest firmware upgrade adds control with a single knob once you have set the balance and the ability to edit metadata.

One note - the NAGRA VI runs cool all the time, I am told the SD 788 gets hot.

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by John Willett

I have just written a review on the NAGRA VI

Where can I read your review?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

Where can I read your review?

It will be published in the next issue of "Line Up" in the UK - it goes to the printers today and on the shelves mid September.

[tsvisser]

Ok, I'm starting to go nuts... Getting a big paycheck soon and my pockets already have holes burned in them.

Holding off on buying a Stellavox AMI mixer that I found, saving money up for a new field recorder.

788t 8/8 channels, Nagra 4/6... about equal in my book, probably a rare occasion that I'd need 4 built in mic pres and 6 total channels sound like enough for me... 80% of the time will be doing 2 or 3.

Nagra 24/96 788t only 24/48. also probably not a huge big deal, until you get a job where the deliverables require it. I'm not saying its night and day, but I'm a believer in 24/96, its subtle, and if we are after performance, every bit counts.

788t small, Nagra is a whale in comparison, important for me since I'm slinging this around most of the times it is in use.

Nagra has 2 DC outputs to power things like radios... definitely a bonus, so maybe that extra size is ameliorated by the fact that it might save be from wearing a battery belt in certain instances.

So John... since your one of the few people that have spent any quality time on the Nagra, inquiring minds want to know. My big two... metering - how well does the LCD display work in this respect versus the 788t's fast, albeit crowded LEDs. ...and of course sound quality. I'm not looking for much coloration, and the Nagra being a transformered design, that is what you get. Since my mics are all ultra clean, maybe subtle coloration would be complimentary to an otherwise clinical sound. I know that you have a write up coming out, but what can you spill the beans on without compromising your editorial?

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by tsvisser

So John... since your one of the few people that have spent any quality time on the Nagra, inquiring minds want to know. My big two... metering - how well does the LCD display work in this respect versus the 788t's fast, albeit crowded LEDs. ...and of course sound quality.

Send me a PM with an e-mail address and I'll send you a pdf of the review (3,000 words).

Metering is great and there are various display options - display is bright and can be dimmed and there is also a "night" mode when using it in dimly lit places.

It runs cool (it worries me that the 788 runs so hot) and sound quality is superb.

I like clean and uncoloured (most of my mics are MKH symmetrical capsule series) and they work well with the Nagra.

Anyway, send me a PM and I'll send you the review.

[Plush]

Greetings Nagrists,

Yesterday I visited a recording friend of mine who has one of the first 6 NVIs in the USA.

We listened for more than an hour and he showed us around the machine.
I was super impressed with the display which is very readable and, as John mentioned, it has modes of display that are simple or more complex. (showing time code and other parameters)

Sound quality was not colored and the features of the machine are well thought out.
The machine weighs much less than I thought it would.

For a music man like me, the higher sampling rate is essential as is the rock solid reliability of all the Nagras I have.

One machine is made in Lausanne area, one machine is made in Wisconsin.
The Nagra is a Nagra and is a much cooler machine than the Sound Devices. The Nagra has the tradition of being THE movie and tv production machine as well. This is what would make the decision for me. When a person walks in with the Nagra, you know they are a serious professional.

Nagrists Unite!

[NZA]

Originally Posted by Plush

I am tempted to order a Nagra VI too, although I think that the Metric halo 8 channel box is much more versatile. It has a mixer with all kinds of plug-ins and effects and the routing is anything to anything else. The drawback, of course, is that it uses a computer as its control surface.

I checked out the Nagra VI at the last NYC AES convention - and I thought it looked pretty disappointing. Feature-wise it seemed well behind the curve. The rumor that I've heard is that Stephan Kudelski isn't involved in the field recorder designing anymore.
The new Metric Halo is something incredible. From what I've heard, it is now externally-controllable. Check out this thread, from Jeff Wexler's board:
Another way to mix

[Plush]

NZA has pointed us to the good news that Metric Halo has big capabilities. I don't, however, believe that the external controller is implemented yet. I am a beta tester for them and I have no news about the external control.

Of course I don't agree with his assessment of the NVI. For classical and acoustic music recording people , the Nagra (any Nagra) is a Godsend.

Although the NVI obviously contains a computer, it is not a computer based recording system.

NZA, in your opinion, what should the Nagra NVI offer that would assuage your disappointment?

[John Willett]

I have used the NAGRA VI and it impressed me so much I am buying it.

I only record part time and a Nagra is a lot of money for me - despite that, it is so good, I had to have one.

[NZA]

Originally Posted by Plush

NZA, in your opinion, what should the Nagra NVI offer that would assuage your disappointment?

Briefly, more tracks and greater flexibility. The newer offerings from Zaxcom and Fostex let you record 6 iso tracks PLUS two mix tracks. The Nagra VI seems to offer most but not all of the functionality of the now-obsolete PD-6. So what is the big deal?

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by NZA

So what is the big deal?

The big deal, it hasn't been industrially designed by Godzilla (as in the case of Zaxcom or Fostex), with lots of tiny buttons (Fostex) to get dust in and malfunction.

Its a pro device with superb ergonomics able to be operated easily under pressure, in dim light, without the need to bring the instruction manual, even if an intermittant user. The reliability is legendary because Nagra make this a design priority.

This is all before one talks about sound quality.

That's the big deal, (with all Nagras).

[John Willett]

David said it - I certainly would not touch Zaxcom with a bargepole after seeing them.

It really comes down to three for me - Nagra, SD and Sonosax - and, for me, the Nagra definitely has it.

[NZA]

Originally Posted by David Spearritt

The big deal, it hasn't been industrially designed by Godzilla (as in the case of Zaxcom or Fostex)

Not sure what you mean here with the "Godzilla". Are you referring to Japanese manufacture? 'Cause Zaxcom is located in New Jersey. Maybe you're talking about some kind of design aesthetic... well, the Nagra VI seems to share the same awful inelegant brick shape as the latter two devices... Cantar-X it is not.

with lots of tiny buttons (Fostex) to get dust in and malfunction.

Yeah, the 606 has a bunch of buttons. Believe it or not, this is a feature, generated by user request. The thinking is that the more functions that are immediately accessible (rather than being menu-driven) the faster and therefore the better. Ultimately it is up to the preference of the user which style is preferred.
Hadn't heard the dust complaint RE:PD-6 series yet, it should be noted.

Its a pro device with superb ergonomics able to be operated easily under pressure, in dim light, without the need to bring the instruction manual, even if an intermittant user.

I can only speak personally here, but I would never show up to a gig with an unfamiliar piece of equipment and expect that its operation be self-explanatory. Just as location recording is a complicated task, the tools designed to accomplish it are proportionally sophisticated.
That said, some pieces of gear are easier to learn than others. It is all very certainly dependent on the user's prior base of experience, and also what the user is expecting to accomplish. If all one needs to do is plug in some microphones and make a recording that doesn't clip, I imagine that anyone who has ever used a cassette deck wouldn't have to consult the VI's manual to accomplish this task. But surely, there is more to location sound than this!
For instance: I am a reasonably experienced location guy, hired to provide playback for a music video shoot. They're shooting on film @ 24fps. Playback file is generously provided by the record label. I show up with someone else's Nagra VI, and trust in it's rational engineering to see me through. So I get to set and I examine the machine, searching for obvious clues as to how to set the thing up.
As point of fact, nowhere in the VI's documentation did I learn that it could import & playback a foreign .WAV file - I'd already be screwed if I assumed this! Let's say it does foreign-source playback. What do I set the Nagra's wordclock to? How do I set up timecode behavior?
Or how about something simple, like output routing. How do I route the boom to its own channel (to feed my boom operator), and route a production "mix" for the director, producers and asst'd hangers-on to listen to? Most multichannel recorders are capable of such (with notable, agonizing exceptions). Should be easy, right?
My point is that "ease of use" or intuitiveness is in the mind of the sound mixer, which is shaped by the necessities of the jobs that they get.

The reliability is legendary because Nagra make this a design priority.

I defy you to find any manufacturer willing to admit that "reliability" is not a "design priority". Of course it it! Professional, expensive equipment ought to be reliable. All of these companies spend huge resources on customer support.
I'll concede that Nagra is a legend in the sound community - especially in terms of its reliability. NO argument here! Kudelski seems to possess a unique understanding of moving parts that his competitors have never matched. As a result, he appears to have dominated the portable recording market until the DAT was introduced. After that, in my opinion, Nagra dropped the ball in a big way and they've been behind since.

This is all before one talks about sound quality.

That's the big deal, (with all Nagras).

I guess I'm willing to believe that the new Nagra sounds better than the equivalent competition. But why critically impaired feature-wise? Why the low track count? Why the poor routing functions? Why so pedestrian in general?
It is only worth complaining about because of Nagra's past status as an innovator and benchmark-setter. I expected a lot from this machine, and I guess I was sorely disappointed.


End of rant

[David Spearritt]

Originally Posted by NZA

Not sure what you mean here with the "Godzilla". Are you referring to Japanese manufacture? 'Cause Zaxcom is located in New Jersey.

No, its the lack of quality of the industrial design. The Zaxcom machines are some of the most powerful and first with innovations in the entire industry, but they are put together with a design flair that is so lacking and utilitarian without any sort of ergonomic thought. Its features are just wacked onto the most difficult brick, with all the wrong dimensions.

Maybe you're talking about some kind of design aesthetic... well, the Nagra VI seems to share the same awful inelegant brick shape as the latter two devices...

No the brick of the Nagra VI is an excellent aspect ratio for shoulder work, or table top, where the dimensions allow for laptops to sit nicely on top without overlap or underlap, its stable on a small table, some of it could be hanging over and it wouldn't tip, contrary to the Deva, etc etc. Its been well thought out and designed with flair.

Cantar-X it is not.

Ah the Cantar, and I love the French for all their unique and innovative design, but this has gone too far the other way. I found myself searching for where the inputs were, are they tucked in under, no, thats a bit of plastic moulding, funny cables routes swishing across the top surfaces, you really have to hunt stuff down on that machine. Still its a whole lot better than the Deva.

The Nagra's design of inputs on the left, outputs on the right and modifiers to the signal on the front is so logical and sensible and timeless, it does not need modification. The Cantar turns this upside down and around, why?

Yeah, the 606 has a bunch of buttons. Believe it or not, this is a feature, generated by user request.

What do users know? :) This request will be recinded, when all those little sliding switches start not sliding or not contacting. Try taking this into the desert or jungle and see how long it lasts. You need spectacles to operate the thing. In fact, switches on the top of the brick is so silly to be laughable. One has to stand up and peer over the top, the top is where dust collects, coffee gets spilled, can't stack anything on top, its a completely nutty idea.

The thinking is that the more functions that are immediately accessible (rather than being menu-driven) the faster and therefore the better.

But a lot of them are not for high use functions (routing) needing fast changes often, they are for low use settings (sample rate, ref freq) which are a whole lot better in menus or config.

I can only speak personally here, but I would never show up to a gig with an unfamiliar piece of equipment and expect that its operation be self-explanatory.

Why not? This is the ultimate challenge to any designer, to make their product understandable with the least help. I am not talking unfamiliarity, we are all professionals and know our equipment intimately, BUT on some machines you always have to have the manual with you for those quirky infrequent cases.

As point of fact, nowhere in the VI's documentation did I learn that it could import & playback a foreign .WAV file - I'd already be screwed if I assumed this!

Not sure what you mean by "foreign" WAV file. Can you elaborate? Any WAV file can be transferred via USB to the Nagra's HDD and played back. Both BWAV or WAV.

Let's say it does foreign-source playback. What do I set the Nagra's
wordclock to? How do I set up timecode behavior?

This is very easy on my Nagra V, can't speak for the VI, but timecode is a fairly universal standard and the terminology is standard as well, chase, lock, FPS etc.

Or how about something simple, like output routing. How do I route the boom to its own channel (to feed my boom operator)

Yes, the NVI's routing is limited to a headphone mix governed by switches in the monitoring matrix and the stereo analog mix governed by the input pan and gain settings. Its not like the Deva where routing is its forte. But some of these features to me are mixer functions. One would have a mixer in front of the NVI with aux busses and independent mixes going to boom or director cut, while still sending channel inserts to the recorder.

I guess I'm willing to believe that the new Nagra sounds better than the equivalent competition.

Well this is where I am less interested and I generally do not believe that Nagra is much better than the competition, their analog design, mic pres and so on, is very good, but the thing that sets these machines apart is the reliability, design, ease of use and ergonomics. Nearly all modern digital recorders are sonically equivalent and therefore uninteresting in this area. If one was vastly sonically superior, everyone would flock to it, and the competition would reverse engineer it. The unique features and value add of machines now are ergonomics and battery life.

But why critically impaired feature-wise?

Such as? Use your mixer more. :)

Why the low track count?

Because that's all 99% of ENG and Film and location music requires. Most film and TV is still MONO for God's sake. If you are doing serious multitrack, get an interface and a laptop.

Why so pedestrian in general?

Don't know what this means, sorry.

[NZA]

JPG 1:
optimal aspect ratio brick

JPG 2:
difficult, inharmonious brick

JPG 3:
confusing, vulnerable brick

JPG 4:
french brick

[David Spearritt]

Beautiful. A picture says a thousand words. Look I could work with a Deva, if forced to, because of its enormous flexibility and I would probably get to love the Cantar once I understood all the wonderful frenchness about it, the sound quality I have heard is stunning, would not even sneeze in the direction of the Fostex, I would be embararrassed to have it in my kit, but its the Nagra that makes one feel like a real audio engineer and satisfies on style and quality in every area.

[chrissugar]

Hi Nagra and Stellavox experts

I know it is a bit OT but thought to post here because most of the Nagra/Stellavox lovers will read.
I'm in the process of building a stereo, 15IPS analog master recorder for my own mastering/recording use ( I already built one from scratch more than 15 years ago, so i'm not scared) and I did a lot of research in this direction by studying most of the recorders available. I have schematics and manuals for almost all the high end recorders that count from Ampex to Ferrograph, Nagra, Studer, MCI, Mark Levinson, Otari, etc, but could never find schematics or manuals in electronic form (PDF) for Stellavox recorders. From what I understand the Stellavox signal path is very short and clean, so I would like to study their implementations and design philosophy.
If anyone cand help me with this kind of info please answer here or send me a PM.
Thank you in advance.

chrissugar

[Karl_Lohninger]

David Spearritt writes:
....Because that's all 99% of ENG and Film and location music requires. Most film and TV is still MONO for God's sake. If you are doing serious multitrack, get an interface and a laptop.


To that I can only say: I wish it were true. Unfortunately though it's very not ;-(
Of course my Nagra IVs is the sexiest machine I own but then we live in times where too many people blabber along the lines that HD video is really way better than film.....very very rarely do I get to use magnetic tape nowadays.

I've also owned a lot of Fostex DAT machines and while there were times I couldn't stop cursing at them, it was never because of their design or that they weren't tough enough for the road. They always were.
I too though think that for film and tv work 6 channels are a bit limiting. We are forced to use so many wireless systems we practically always have to split, plus provide a mixdown for editing........


Still I'm really curious how the new Nagra behaves in the field.

Karl Lohninger