Tips on buying a small P.A.?

[JoFo]

I need to buy a smallish P.A. for wedding type gigs. Mostly jazz band stuff, vocals, nothing too huge.

I'm completely clueless when it comes to live sound. Any tips I should know before I buy?

thanks!

joel

[hbphotoav]

RCF ART322A mains, over Mackie, JBL or QSC powered 18" subs; JBL EON 510 or 515 for wedges. Small-form mixer of your choice... if you're wanting to track the gigs, Mackie Onyx 1640i or PreSonus Studio Live 16 are pretty cool, with a laptop and a hard drive.

My four RCFs were new (main gigs are corporate AV support); all of my JBLs were used (4 15" G1s; 4 10" G2s) or B-stock. Mackie 1801s were a GS blowout ($900 each, new). I've run Onyx 1220i and 1640i for about 5 years, no complaints. It all fits on rollerboards in a small 6x10 single-axle trailer, with lighting and video. I work regularly in about five states from New Jersey to Florida, and locally around middle Tennessee.

Mics package includes SM57s, SM58s, Beta 87As, PG81s, AT4041s, Audix D6, AKG D112 and C419s, and a couple of Cascade Fatheads. Also, KT and Radial DIs; K&M mic stands; Applied Electronics 11' crank stands; Ultimate Support clutched 8' speaker stands; power trunk; snake/subsnake trunk; mic cables trunk.

HTH.

HB

[Jim vanBergen]

Harry gives you good advice. I'll add a tiny bit:

While I use Meyer, d&B, L'Acoustics, JBL VerTec and EAW as my traditional sound systems on a daily basis, I have found the Tapco Thump15A to be a really great value/buy for a compact, self-powered speaker. Pair it with Tapco/Mackie console that matches your input list with room to grow.

Hope this helps!

JvB

[M4-10]

You can also rent gear, which can be a great idea for the main speakers, if not the rest.

I hope you're not charging money when you have no idea about live sound. It's not a hobby.

I'm in Vancouver and I have a small live rig. I'm for hire.

I'm also starting up a "sound guy boot camp for musicians" that focuses on the basics with the intent that musicians know enough about live sound to be able to talk intelligently to the sound guy and give him their best sound, and for musicians to be comfortable enough to run the gear at an open mic. I can show you a lot and get your hands on gear before you're gig-able.

Send me a PM if any of that interests you.

[JoFo]

Originally Posted by M4-10

You can also rent gear, which can be a great idea for the main speakers, if not the rest.

I hope you're not charging money when you have no idea about live sound. It's not a hobby.

I'm in Vancouver and I have a small live rig. I'm for hire.

I'm also starting up a "sound guy boot camp for musicians" that focuses on the basics with the intent that musicians know enough about live sound to be able to talk intelligently to the sound guy and give him their best sound, and for musicians to be comfortable enough to run the gear at an open mic. I can show you a lot and get your hands on gear before you're gig-able.

Send me a PM if any of that interests you.

Sorry not looking to hire thanks.
I should have been more clear. I'm not looking for a sound-man here and it's not gear I would be renting out. No recording of this either. Just for me on small gigs. most instruments would be self-amplified, but I want something I could throw vocals through and possibly a keyboard, then play some quiet music on the break. I could probably even get away with a cheapo fender passport, but something a bit bigger and more flexible might be better. I only really need a pair of mains to start. I doubt I need subs or a crossover at this point, as it's not pop music or huge venues, or ZZ top covers.

anyways...that Tapco thump looks good for the price! thanks for the tip! they are self-powered so I could just bring a small mixer?
that would be super-cool and a great way to start small without buying an amp.

I appreciate the advice, as I said said I'm "clueless" about brands of power amps and live speakers and what to avoid!

[jjb]

For the price, the Tapco's are a pretty decent speaker. My only complaint with them is that they're really bigger than they need to be, but that's a result of them basically being a weaker version of the SRM450. You can get them with Mackie branding now, which lets you avoid the god-awful Tapco yellow.

If you just want a little all-in-one sort of deal like the fender, but with proper knobs instead of the terrible terrible fender controls, perhaps you could look into the Yamaha StagePas line. There are a couple different ones, but they're all basically a speaker or two with a basic little mixer that can be mounted right in the back of one of the speakers.

[Roland]

The new Mackie 1521's provide a loud, detailed sound, for the sort of money they are I would think they are hard to beat and they are powered too so no external amp rack, important to consider if you have to cart them about. If you need to amp more than voices and odd brass mics you probably will have to consider subs, somthing to be avoided as this becomes a far more complicated scenario. For a mixer, anything like an A&H mix wizard, Mackie onxy, even a yamaha 01 should be fine. If you need monitors as well, go and try a few out, look for something clear and compact with neutral response.

Regards


Roland

[faderc]

Howdy, im in New Zealand so im not sure what you pay for these things but heres my 2cents...

My first pick would be the EAW NT29's. Probably the most expensive, really really great sound though. Serious pro audio.

Then the QSC K10's or K12's. Id say these are close to the NT in sound quality and they beat any other plastic box ive heard. The boxes also have some (all be it limited) routing and input options you dont always get.

I havent had any experience of current RCF stuff, so wont comment.

The SRM450 is 'ok' , but id want to demo a few to get the best sounding pair.


Desk wise i like my A&H mix wizard, but a 2nd hand 01V96 would be very handy for recalling different band set ups. And there is more depth in the FX section. Plus with an 01V, you wont need any extra EQ for the main speakers or the monitor sends as the 01V has an eq you can use on these...not a 31 band graphic, but a more than useable parametric.

My conclusion... QSC K10 or 12 with 01V96.

Cool
Craig

[AlexK]

The QSC K series are absolutely fantastic. Very lightweight, sound fantastic, go very loud, and have some great features (like being able tilt on the top of a stand, built in mic-preamp and basic EQ switch etc...).

Tips:

Avoid ANY speaker with a 15" driver reproducing midrange - this is due to directivity and how the speaker sounds off to an angle (which is very important!). A 15" driver cannot reproduce mids properly.

Despite 'Jim vanBergen's advice above (and I don't want or mean to offend him!), I couldn't want to guide you away from the Tapco Thumps strongly enough. They're hideously inefficient drivers and cabinets, so despite their large size (15"), you just can't get ANY volume from them at all. A 15" speaker peaking at 114 dB is shocking. A QSC K8 (8" speaker) peaks at 127 dB. This is more than twice as loud...

[Dave Ferris]

Originally Posted by faderc

H.

My first pick would be the EAW NT29's. Probably the most expensive, really really great sound though. Serious pro audio.

The NW series has been discontinued by EAW. They are quite $$$$ but do sound great as mentioned. I looked around for a used or demo pair NT26s in the LA area with the help of the local EAW rep and came up with zero.

I have a pair of EV SXA 360s 4 sale on the GS classifieds here.. These are 12" 2 way active plastic boxes.
The EVs don't have the advantage of the built in preamp although you can plug a line source into them. For vocals on a pole or in a monitor wedge position they go loud and sound great for a 36 lb. plastic box.

Also consider the already mentioned RCF. They are a sleeper company in the US but their stuff sounds great. I'm personally upgrading my piano rig to the RCF TT08As. Great detail and clarity. It's "Pro Audio" not "MI" so the price is more but you get what you pay for. The TT22A will stand head to toe with the Meyer UPJ-1P at half the price.

[faderc]

I had heard the NT's were being discontinued, (local company i freelance for has a bunch of EAW)...

Oh, yeah, the QSC K has that tilt thing, id forgotten!

Price for sound, totally the winner.

Cool.

Craig

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by Dave Ferris

...
Also consider the already mentioned RCF. They are a sleeper company in the US but their stuff sounds great. I'm personally upgrading my piano rig to the RCF TT08As. Great detail and clarity. It's "Pro Audio" not "MI" so the price is more but you get what you pay for. The TT22A will stand head to toe with the Meyer UPJ-1P at half the price.

RCF are "sleeper" only in that they do not market directly into the US as do the "usual suspects." Not only did they do the original design and OEM on the G1 EON line and Mackie 450 series, they are one of the largest manufacturers of raw drivers in the world. Check nearly any EAW concert cabinet and you'll likely find RCF drivers (at least, that was the case 5-8 years ago).

I actively auditioned all the major speaker-on-a-stick manufacturers about 5 years ago, and RCF ART322As (RCF - ART 322-A) were, hands down, the best sub-$1K option for sound. I can't remember when I've used the main 31-band to EQ anything but nodes. Either as mains, or as wedges with my "big" system, the speakers need very little help.

Until you need a line array or stacked or point-and-shoot PA for more than 500 people (who like it LOUD) I can't think of a better option.

HB

[AllAboutTone]

EAW rates a speaker cab at 500 watts, is that peak ? continus ?

[hbphotoav]

No speaker manufacturer worth its weight in warm spit advertises anything but "continuous" ratings... "peak" is largely defined however the marketing guys care to define it.

You've got to relate that number "400w Continuous" to the SPL output at that input. A speaker that delivers "128dB SPL @ 400W RMS" plays a good bit louder than one that does "120dB SPL @ 800W RMS"... although you might be tempted to buy the one that can "take" 800W.

See < Audio power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > for a good bit if relevant info.

[AllAboutTone]

Mine are 500W (8 ohm) - 124dB SPL (long term) what does long term mean ?

[hbphotoav]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Mine are 500W (8 ohm) - 124dB SPL (long term) what does long term mean ?

Audio devices like woofers and tweeters can take large amounts of power for very short times ("peaks"... like a cymbal hit or a kick drum thump) and, if the amplifier has plenty of power reserve ("headroom"), it and the drivers can recover from the peaks. A "long-term" musical item would be an extended low-bass synth note or bass run, a bit of runaway high frequency feedback howl, or, as speakers are tested, a long burst of "pink noise".

"Long-term" power tests provide a measure of "extreme situation" testing. One reason EAW and other high-end PA gear is so expensive is the "overbuilt" nature of the individual drivers, and the tendency to equip them with built-in overload protection circuits. When drivers are put into extreme situations, enormous amounts of heat must be dissipated, and (in the instance of bass drivers) large excursions (movements) of the voice coil and cone. Uncontrolled, this can cause high frequency diaphragms and woofer cones to "blow"... "burn out"... or otherwise fail.

Any speaker can be abused into failure... but speakers with conservative power handling ratings, robust construction with top-end drivers, and adequate power amplification to drive them... those tend to last, and, if they sound good, show up on technical riders. It's always good to bring more than enough PA... and to learn to live within its limits.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by hbphotoav

Audio devices like woofers and tweeters can take large amounts of power for very short times ("peaks"... like a cymbal hit or a kick drum thump) and, if the amplifier has plenty of power reserve ("headroom"), it and the drivers can recover from the peaks. A "long-term" musical item would be an extended low-bass synth note or bass run, a bit of runaway high frequency feedback howl, or, as speakers are tested, a long burst of "pink noise".

"Long-term" power tests provide a measure of "extreme situation" testing. One reason EAW and other high-end PA gear is so expensive is the "overbuilt" nature of the individual drivers, and the tendency to equip them with built-in overload protection circuits. When drivers are put into extreme situations, enormous amounts of heat must be dissipated, and (in the instance of bass drivers) large excursions (movements) of the voice coil and cone. Uncontrolled, this can cause high frequency diaphragms and woofer cones to "blow"... "burn out"... or otherwise fail.

Any speaker can be abused into failure... but speakers with conservative power handling ratings, robust construction with top-end drivers, and adequate power amplification to drive them... those tend to last, and, if they sound good, show up on technical riders. It's always good to bring more than enough PA... and to learn to live within its limits.

Makes sense, thanks.

[cheu78]

I'm very happy with the turbosound NuQ line (the 10" inch are incredible).. Not on the cheap side btw.. But for me is totally worthed..
Also some eaw stuff is very nice!

If you want to save some bucks, I'd check the A&H mixers, they sound very good for the money..


Just my 0.02$,

bests,

Cheu

[AlexK]

The Allen & Heath Mix Wizard WZ16:2 is a fantastic little mixer, amazing for the price. Only one bus though, but plenty of auxes, very good EQs, great preamps and proper controls (full length faders etc)...

Fully recommended...

[mixedupsteve]

I'm with Alex and Dave. The QSC Ks sound great and so do the EVs. I have EV SX300s and they sound very natural. I mix regularly on Mackie 450s and would never want them myself. When pushed they break down and sound terrible.
There is a mix wiz 14:4:2 mixer with 10 mic pres, 4 groups and 2 matrix outs. If 10 pres is enough you cant beat it.

[AllAboutTone]

Worse 2 power sources out there.

Any Mackie power amp, not dependable, horrible.
QSC RMX amps, omg they are NASTY, make sure you buy higher end QSC amps.

[AlexK]

I believe the QSC RMX amps could be re-badge jobs, although I'm not 100% sure of that so don't take my word on it!

RE: SX300s, that's a speaker I've never been able to get along with. -1 for the SRM450, they just have far too much bite, and really require a lot of EQing to get them sounding any good, plus the sound changes so much as you turn them up. Not good.

I find the opposite of the SX300 though, it just simply doesn't have any bite for me. There's no top-end transparency, but they just fire sibilance all over the place, and have no punch/impact. Not a fan personally, but if they work for you, then they fit the bill perfectly!

[jeremynothman]

Do not like the Mackie tops (as said, WAY too much bite, scooped at 800Hz - meant for mobile DJs, but I think most DJs would even agree they are too bright) or the JBL Eons (again, way too bright, but kinda OK with subs).

As said, the RCFs are very solid and sound pretty good.

[Sonic Lush]

Originally Posted by mixedupsteve

...There is a mix wiz 14:4:2 mixer with 10 mic pres, 4 groups and 2 matrix outs. If 10 pres is enough you cant beat it.

Just used the AH 14:4:2 for the first time recently and I was blown away with how flexible that little console is.

ten mic amps was limiting, but sometimes that's a good thing, right?

No one has mentioned KV2 in this discussion yet--

not sure how they compare price wise to EAW and Meyer

but the EX10 and EX12 units and the 2.2 dual 15 powered sub is
really great kit.

happy 4th,
walt

[Liveman2910]

Rule number one. Get some boxes with a paper midrange unit preferably bi amped.
Rule number two could be not less than 400 watts rms
Rule number three use some form of fairly good compression on vocals, bass, kick and gate the snare with reverb just like in the studio if your sound will fit that scene

[Liveman2910]

Lush does this right. Allen Heath desk is hot we have two reliable solid sounder

[Don S]

Originally Posted by Sonic Lush

No one has mentioned KV2 in this discussion yet--

Amazing sounding boxes. I worked with the EX12 a couple times. It does need the sub however. Also, I'm not sure how available support is here in the US.

[AlexK]

Originally Posted by Liveman2910

Rule number one. Get some boxes with a paper midrange unit preferably bi amped.
Rule number two could be not less than 400 watts rms
Rule number three use some form of fairly good compression on vocals, bass, kick and gate the snare with reverb just like in the studio if your sound will fit that scene

I'd actually disagree with a lot of that. '400 watts RMS' won't tell you anything. I've used passive d&b speakers powered by 300watt d&b E-Pac amplifiers which will kick up a stink in comparison to other speakers with twice as much power, if not more.

I'd also be wary of gating kick and snare. If mics get moved, then that can screw up your gating. When you've got someone to look after the sound all the time who really knows what they're doing, then you can start to look at gating and dynamic processing. By that stage though, you're talking about either carrying loads of outboard with you, or going digital (the way to do it nowadays!)

[mixedupsteve]

Originally Posted by Sonic Lush

Just used the AH 14:4:2 for the first time recently and I was blown away with how flexible that little console is.

ten mic amps was limiting, but sometimes that's a good thing, right?



happy 4th,
walt

I bought a ZED 14 for that very reason. It only has 6 pres but has 4 stereo pairs and USB IO. I really bought it for theatre work so I can use Qlab and inexperienced ops can use 2 CD players at once. There's more routing options on that little board than most $2K+ mixers.
I agree about limits being good sometimes. I've recorded the 2trk USB out off an aux bus while doing a live acoustic show and the result was very "real" sounding.

[autodidactic]

+1 for QSC powered speakers. i have a pair that I have used for clubs and weddings (Greek music). They were about $900 each when I bought them. They sound absolutely amazing. They are heavy though since they're not plastic, only wood on the cabs and metals for the amp.