Location recording: JoeCo BlackBox or...?

[Shiny Beast]

I have an opportunity in late summer/fall to do a series of location recordings, lucrative enough to justify a serious gear investment. 24 tracks will be sufficient. First off, I have rented an HD24 in the past and didn't care for it. So here are a couple of other ideas:

JoeCo BlackBox: pretty much plug & play, OR

2 x Echo Audiofire 12 (already have a desktop system that could handle this, not great portability though)

I'm really thinking about a dedicated Mac Mini in a system with the Audiofires. Would be about the same $$$ as the BlackBox, and I'd love to have Reaper right there with me on location.
Is there anything about the above ideas that would recommend one over the other? I haven't heard either the BlackBox or the Echos in action.

[Teddy Ray]

I don't think that many people have used the BlackBox here..

but the HD24 and HD24XR are in heavy rotation.

Why didn't you like the HD24?

[DannyL]

The Mac minis are pretty decent little boxes, but you will need a monitor, keyboard, USB hub and a FW hub.

I am always leery of 2 audio input devices sharing the FW port.

Rather than a Mac Mini, you could go with a MacBook or even an I-Mac.
Cost-wise it may be about the same.

You will need the maximum in RAM.

How about a Shuttle? Welcome to the Shuttle computer US website.

Lots of options there.

Danny

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by DannyL

The Mac minis are pretty decent little boxes, but you will need a monitor, keyboard, USB hub and a FW hub.

I am always leery of 2 audio input devices sharing the FW port.

Rather than a Mac Mini, you could go with a MacBook or even an I-Mac.
Cost-wise it may be about the same.

You will need the maximum in RAM.

How about a Shuttle? Welcome to the Shuttle computer US website.

Lots of options there.

Danny

ridiculously expensive... you can damn near always build the computers yourself for much cheaper than these "turnkey" operations do... and just as powerful.

[matthewd]

I have a Joeco Black Box Recorder coming in the next couple of days on demo and will let you know how I get on with it.

Matt

[Shiny Beast]

Why didn't you like the HD24?

Have used 2 different units... the first gave ERROR messages half a dozen times during a 1-hour show, and stopped on its own twice. (Luckily there were two performances that day.) The second unit produced 3 corrupted, unusable tracks out of a 19-track recording. It had not given any error messages during the recording.

The Mac minis are pretty decent little boxes, but you will need a monitor, keyboard, USB hub and a FW hub.

I already have a monitor and Mac keyboard. Why would I need a USB or FW hub? The Audiofires would be clocked together and daisy-chained to the FW port.

My main question is, which has better-sounding audio, the BlackBox or the Audiofire? Or is it a toss-up?

[Murton]

I would probably say the JoeCo Blackbox. But remember, you do need preamps aswell.

[Corran]

Sounds like you got really unlucky, twice. Maybe because they were rentals?

My HD24XR, as many others from what I've read, has never given me a lick of trouble. The only real issue arises from serious bass messing with the hard drives. Was the music bass-heavy or just loud at those two gigs? I record 90% classical/acoustic jazz so I don't have that problem.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

My main question is, which has better-sounding audio, the BlackBox or the Audiofire? Or is it a toss-up?

Nobody knows...not that many users.

[NorseHorse]

I bet the JoeCo will have more staying power. And if you are interested in remote recording it's definitely more mobile.

Plus, I'd consider renting it from you. Not the Audiofires, though.

[tourtelot]

FWIW, I was not happy with my sample of the JoeCo, and have replaced it with a decade-old Mackie HDR2496.

Too bad because the JoeCo is REALLY small and light. Just never felt I could have good faith in it's performance but I could have had one bad unit. I'll be interested to hear about JoeCo's performance as more units see their way into the market; it's a really good idea.

The people at JoeCo, the distributer in the USA and B&H Photo Video were all really great at helping me, so this is no slam at JoeCo. But knowing that something is going to work is high on my list of priorities for location recording equipment.

Regards,

D.

D.

[JonesH]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

FWIW, I was not happy with my sample of the JoeCo, and have replaced it with a decade-old Mackie HDR2496.

Too bad because the JoeCo is REALLY small and light. Just never felt I could have good faith in it's performance but I could have had one bad unit. I'll be interested to hear about JoeCo's performance as more units see their way into the market; it's a really good idea.

Could you elaborate a little? What made you feel that way?

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

I have an opportunity in late summer/fall to do a series of location recordings, lucrative enough to justify a serious gear investment. 24 tracks will be sufficient. First off, I have rented an HD24 in the past and didn't care for it. So here are a couple of other ideas:

JoeCo BlackBox: pretty much plug & play, OR

2 x Echo Audiofire 12 (already have a desktop system that could handle this, not great portability though)

I'm really thinking about a dedicated Mac Mini in a system with the Audiofires. Would be about the same $$$ as the BlackBox, and I'd love to have Reaper right there with me on location.
Is there anything about the above ideas that would recommend one over the other? I haven't heard either the BlackBox or the Echos in action.

Get both. Somewhere in the back of my head, I can hear a gong, a sitar, and a voice: OMMMMMMMMM...I will always use a backup recorder...OMMMMMMMMMMMMM...I will always use a backup recorder...OMMMMMMMMMMMM...

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

Have used 2 different units... the first gave ERROR messages half a dozen times during a 1-hour show, and stopped on its own twice. (Luckily there were two performances that day.) The second unit produced 3 corrupted, unusable tracks out of a 19-track recording. It had not given any error messages during the recording.

Rental machines...probably some disc error due to rough handling. OMMMMMMMMMMM.......


BTW Last weekend I did the first gig with my (bought used) Mackie MDR backup. No clocking issues (I had encountered them regularly with a friend's Fostex D2424LV which seems to have a strange amount of latency between its ADAT ins and outs), and a group of dancers was going through their choreography 2 ft next to my rig. No hiccups.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by JonesH

Could you elaborate a little? What made you feel that way?

Build quality seemed weak, and my unit had some clocking issues.

I know that there is interest in my experience, as there was in another topic, but I am trying to be mindful of public "trash talk" since my problem was treated so considerately by everyone around the JoeCo.

I would say to anyone interested to try a unit with the up-front proviso that it can be returned "no questions asked" if it does suit your expectations. That's what I did, and it was not at all unpleasant.

D.

[Shiny Beast]

I would probably say the JoeCo Blackbox. But remember, you do need preamps aswell.

I have them. I'm not new at this.

Get both. Somewhere in the back of my head, I can hear a gong, a sitar, and a voice: OMMMMMMMMM...I will always use a backup

Great idea. You don't happen to have an extra $2500 lying around, do you?

I bet the JoeCo will have more staying power. And if you are interested in remote recording it's definitely more mobile.

If the sound & reliability is there, I would gladly give it a go.

But it would give me a warm fuzzy to have Reaper there on a nice big screen. Ergo the Mac Mini idea.

[Corran]

It won't give you a warm fuzzy feeling when the computer hiccups, as they are always prone to do. If you are going the computer route, be sure to figure out a backup system for the live 2-track at the very least regardless of what happens on the computer system.

[Remoteness]

We have three HD24XRs and one HD24 with the EC2 upgrade kit.
All four recorders have been rock solid for us.
We haven't had a single issue or problem to date.

For us it makes perfect sense to hang tough with these units.
They are solid recorders and have never failed us.
So, for us it's a no-brainer.

That being said, I still have my eye on testing one of those JoeCo Boxes.
I like having plenty of options, but the build quality is very important to us.

[summer_room]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

Have used 2 different units... the first gave ERROR messages half a dozen times during a 1-hour show, and stopped on its own twice. (Luckily there were two performances that day.) The second unit produced 3 corrupted, unusable tracks out of a 19-track recording. It had not given any error messages during the recording.

I have used a HD24 from time to time, and it has been flawless - but I have heard from other users of the same machine, that it makes errors when the the unit is not isolated enough from the show.
It does not handle bass freq's is very good I guess...

-Jon

[Shiny Beast]

It won't give you a warm fuzzy feeling when the computer hiccups

I have used my homebuilt XP desktop with Delta 1010, all 8 channels in, for three shows and nary a glitch (system is on a UPS). Same system at home has crashed during a take only once in 3 years use.

I know that doesn't prove anything, but still.

The HD24 family seems fairly... mature, let's say. I suppose it's good bang for the buck. You think it will have support for some time to come?

[recordinghopkins]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

The HD24 family seems fairly... mature, let's say. I suppose it's good bang for the buck. You think it will have support for some time to come?

Lots of bang for the buck with an HD24xr, A/D conversion quality is worth twice as much as the unit to begin with. Easy to read meters, audio-centric formatting of the HDD, cheap and common IDE drives, adat in and out, well you get the picture. Sorry you have had a bad experience with it, rentals are a poor way to judge reliability of anything. It could be that the drives that were installed weren't ones that are tried and true reliable. If I rented one, I would buy my own drive anyway. I don't trust any hard drive that I don't know where it's been and how hard it has been worked.

Support? I assume you mean from Alesis....
It's discontinued.
That DOES NOT mean no support. The yahoo HD24 group is outstanding for support, and there are a ton of users here that have them and could easily provide support. I don't see this thing going anywhere in the near future.
It has an established reputation for rock solid performance, regardless of the troubles you encountered with the rentals. You would do well to reconsider the HD24 or 24xr.

[Shiny Beast]

Support? I assume you mean from Alesis....
It's discontinued.

So there is one and only one rackmount multitrack (>8 tracks) recorder in current production.

Hmmmmm...

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by summer_room

I have used a HD24 from time to time, and it has been flawless - but I have heard from other users of the same machine, that it makes errors when the the unit is not isolated enough from the show.
It does not handle bass freq's is very good I guess...

-Jon

There's a seriously simple fix for that problem that entails a few plastic washers.

[Remoteness]

Originally Posted by Shiny Beast

...The HD24 family seems fairly... mature, let's say. I suppose it's good bang for the buck. You think it will have support for some time to come?

Zero support; I mean, you're on your own...

Well, may be not because you do have the HD24 group at Yahoo.
IMO, this recorder isn't going away any time soon, but it is discontinued, so in the end you're really "on your own."

In any event, they're pretty cheap on the used market, so having an extra unit or five keeps plenty of parts on hand.

YMMV

[Teddy Ray]

yep..

the hd24 group is phenomenal.

one guy there(from the netherlands) even has an application for pulling the DATA off the drives in case of a corruption..

[Fuzzy Logic]

yahoo hd24 group - strength in numbers.

[recordinghopkins]

One thing that the blackbox does not have is midi machine control...
I have my HD24 connected so that when I begin recording it automatically starts my DAW... one button to rule them all! super handy when using multiple devices for safety....

[JonesH]

I've always been wary of one control surface with the power to disable all recorders at once. Seems useful for record production work maybe, but really scary for concert recordings.

I guess I wouldn't mind to have the possibility to use mmc, but neither is the lack of it a dealbreaker.

[bishopthomas]

Having the backup machine connected to the primary via MMC is not a good idea. If the master stops, so does the slave. Now, for a 48 channel setup, of course you would want it. Is there a way to lock two BlackBoxes together or would you just have to line it up later?

[recordinghopkins]

I understand what you mean with mmc stopping the daw, but for whatever reason the only transport function I have been able to get it to work with is record/play, and I have to record enable PT first. Perhaps I don't have it configured correctly, but the stop button on the hd24 doesn't stop PT even when I want it to, so I left it connected... what's the chance that it could suddenly decide to work? Perhaps I should yank the midi cable....

There is about a 1 sec delay between pushing play on hd24 and pro tools actually recording, so it's not useful for syncing track start/stop anyway

[remrec]

You can lock 2 Black Boxes together with one rca/rca cable. We did record a festival for 4 days, 10 hours a day, with 2 of these units slaved together. They worked very well for us.