Noob(ish) Film Sound, Location Sound Question.

[memphisindie]

I am moving to an area with quite a few film sound jobs, I'm looking to do more film sound work and I believe I'll have clients from previous jobs waiting. I've been doing mostly music stuff, but:
I do plenty of video production, BUT, I haven't had to do location recording for films much.
I have done location sound for video which didn't require Timecode, one long pilot shoot that should have, but, I got it synced in PT, One feature length that required MASSIVE repairs, then foley, efx, and music beds and I mixed it.
I work regularly on a Tricaster producing video live on the weekends and webcasts as a one man production team. That is the extent of my experience.
I have an R4 Pro (with timecode), Senn Me66 shotgun, boompole, windscreen, and 2 Senn G2 wireless lavs and a plugon.
(and tons of other mics, mostly music recording studio stuff)
Is this going to be enough to get into location film sound? What do I need to do, be wary of, know, buy, etc.?

[tourtelot]

Where ya moving to?

D.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

Where ya moving to?

D.

NOT Seattle, don't worry.
That's where I plan to retire to.
Are you going to answer any of MY questions?

[jnorman]

memph - in that game, you are trying to sell your experience and your contacts, not what gear you have. generally, sound equipment is rented for film projects by the production company, so i dont think you really need to invest in gear unless you plan to work on indie movies with no budget, in which case, you have a basic set which you can expand upon as you see specific needs - and even there, it is often better to rent exactly what you need for certain shots rather than purchase outright.

also, you will potentially make much more money in foley and post than as a sound guy.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by jnorman

memph - in that game, you are trying to sell your experience and your contacts, not what gear you have. generally, sound equipment is rented for film projects by the production company, so i dont think you really need to invest in gear unless you plan to work on indie movies with no budget, in which case, you have a basic set which you can expand upon as you see specific needs - and even there, it is often better to rent exactly what you need for certain shots rather than purchase outright.

also, you will potentially make much more money in foley and post than as a sound guy.

Right, only, I already own the gear listed.
I'll be doing location sound while hopefully really turning out a well done, or, exemplary product.
I have some interns and kids I would like to have them a path for career growth in this industry and I think diversifying just a smidge would be great for everyone involved. I'd love to turn out a crop of excellent engineers while feeding my family's faces.

[tourtelot]

I am not worried<g>. There is no work in Seattle. I NEVER work at home. And when I give my $.02 on this forum, everyone jumps in my stuff and tells me what a old fogey I am. Best of luck in your endeavors.

D.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

I am not worried<g>. There is no work in Seattle. I NEVER work at home. And when I give my $.02 on this forum, everyone jumps in my stuff and tells me what a old fogey I am. Best of luck in your endeavors.

D.

I can relate to the old part. I can't even look in a mirror anymore.
I plan on retiring in the Northwest and getting buried there.
I'll take your .02 if you give it.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by jnorman

memph - in that game, you are trying to sell your experience and your contacts, not what gear you have. generally, sound equipment is rented for film projects by the production company, so i dont think you really need to invest in gear unless you plan to work on indie movies with no budget, in which case, you have a basic set which you can expand upon as you see specific needs - and even there, it is often better to rent exactly what you need for certain shots rather than purchase outright.

also, you will potentially make much more money in foley and post than as a sound guy.

FWIW, I have to disagree with this. Unless you work on the lot at Warner, maybe still Fox, and there might be some others, motion picture soundmen are expected by the company to own and provide gear. This is true on everything I have ever worked on. Producers know what constitutes a good package, who owns them, and then, how little they can pay in rentals on them.

Rentals by the way, have gone DOWN since I started, and even more is expected as part of a "basic" package. Don't try and work on TV unless you have two TC slates (three is better), 8-12 comteks, back ups for all the critical gear, all the myriad of radio mics needed these days to do eight iso wireless, plus overheads. Multi-track recorders, big panel, personal video assist, perhaps tri-level sync boxes for three cameras (if they shoot digi).

If anyone is interested, I would be willing to sell my package at a $60,000 discount. It's not making money anymore. Don't everyone raise their hand at once<g>.

D.

[memphisindie]

I'm looking to do 4 channels of audio, 3 dialog mics and an ambient, or 4 with a later wild track, or any combo required within the limits of my gear.

[tourtelot]

What happens if you have six actors speaking in a wide shot? Warning, this is a trick question.

Okay, not a trick question. What happens if you have six actors speaking in a wideshot that is being covered with a B-camera on roving singles (picking of each actor as he/she speaks?)

D.

[memphisindie]

Lots of faders up on a mixer, I've done that before, for the Whitehouse, YEARS ago when Bubbah was president.
10 big wigs, 3 stationary cameras, remotely controlled and a roving shot all done live and then simulcast to China. The biggest trick was leaving up the faders. I didn't want to, but, I did and it worked, used all dynamics and it didn't pick up much ambience. It worked. That was all live though.

In post it's not to hard to deal with if you have decent audio.

I'm not starting out with a giant owned kit, so, I'll rent whatever I need. I'm not trying to take down any big jobs at first either.
In post, I feel like I can handle plenty, live (for dialog), I'll need to do an internship somewhere. I've done ENG type stuff too, I'm fine on boom, no shadows and good audio.
This is very helpful, thanks.

[aracu]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

Don't try and work on TV unless you have two TC slates (three is better), 8-12 comteks, back ups for all the critical gear, all the myriad of radio mics needed these days to do eight iso wireless, plus overheads.

Not trying to start an argument, but with all due respect, I don't agree with this approach. In my opinion, if one person is hired to record sound, that person ought to focus on working a boom mic and getting the spatial perspective of the camera image. If that is done well, all the other gear is unnecessary! Sure, the comteks and wireless mics may be part of the tradition, but if the sound comes out well or better without them people will be happy. It's better to do one task well then to divide one's attention into various tasks that traditionally were done by two or more people, which by the way can be thought of as exploitation! Rather than bring thousands of dollars of extra gear to please some controlling camera soldiers, have them close the windows and place the generator around the corner.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by aracu

Not trying to start an argument, but with all due respect, I don't agree with this approach. In my opinion, if one person is hired to record sound, that person ought to focus on working a boom mic and getting the spatial perspective of the camera image. If that is done well, all the other gear is unnecessary! Sure, the comteks and wireless mics may be part of the tradition, but if the sound comes out well or better without them people will be happy. It's better to do one task well then to divide one's attention into various tasks that traditionally were done by two or more people, which by the way can be thought of as exploitation! Rather than bring thousands of dollars of extra gear to please some controlling camera soldiers, have them close the windows and place the generator around the corner.

Hey thanks for that and BOY can I relate right now!

Where I work, right now, for the audio video production I do, which is most of what I do these days, I spec and deploy all the sound gear for each production, lavs, shotguns, handhelds, and each production has at least 4 mics, often a 5 piece band with 8 singers in addition, plus, three times a year a full theatrical production with 20 actors and a full band. My standards for the audio and band are that the dialog MUST sound good without overloading so that it can be leveled and put in, the band must sound like a full dynamic, full bandwidth high quality musical concert production (which I have extensive experience with).
I also simultaneously run two robotically controlled cameras, set up all camera shots, cue all camera shots, create all lower thirds on the fly, insert lower thirds, record and webstream the output of all that, ALL AT ONCE, and do the very best job as humanly possible every single time without serious complaint, and design the open ended upgrade path for the system so my client won't be left behind or billed to oblivion via this path.

So far so good, but, exploited? OH YES!

The exploitation has helped me in the design of the upgrade path. Knowing that the next guy shouldn't have to navigate the carcasses I have, I remove them from the path, I design the system to be more runnable by fewer people. At some point, there will be three people to run it at least, but, right now there is a budget for 1/4th of a person.
I have designed all three rooms to be streamed from one location via wireless transmission of audio and video from 3 locations to one central reciever, and 3 additional receivers can take production back to those locations for display or monitoring purposes.
It's apparently ahead of it's time now. I consistently get WOW's for the quality of the output.
And it's all done LIVE.

Post is more controllable, "seeemingly easier" compared to this. Even the extreme post I've done on butchered files fragmented into the millions I've had to reassemble to the frame over multiple tracks, and then make cohesive new tracks out of them, reconforming them, then adding efx and everything else and the final mix, turning music beds from nondiagetic to diagetic inconspicuously bring it in, "seems" easier, much more time consuming but easier.
I love post, I'm good at it, but I am good at gathering location sound too.

[tourtelot]

Originally Posted by aracu

Not trying to start an argument, but with all due respect, I don't agree with this approach. In my opinion, if one person is hired to record sound, that person ought to focus on working a boom mic and getting the spatial perspective of the camera image. If that is done well, all the other gear is unnecessary! Sure, the comteks and wireless mics may be part of the tradition, but if the sound comes out well or better without them people will be happy. It's better to do one task well then to divide one's attention into various tasks that traditionally were done by two or more people, which by the way can be thought of as exploitation! Rather than bring thousands of dollars of extra gear to please some controlling camera soldiers, have them close the windows and place the generator around the corner.

See the above questions, and try doing the job on a TV series being hosed down with a B-camera all the time. You can't do it with one boom mic. Can not be done.

Okay, in the past, before post discovered iso tracks, you could do a single camera show with a mono Nagra and a 416. When the directors let you get you dialog in the coverage close up, and wide shots with out dialog were okay because he know that you'd give him clean track in the coverage, that was okay. They don't do it that way anymore, at least in my end of the business. I can only speak about my work, but if I tried to do my shows with one (or even two) boommen, I'd be fired day number 3. And it's not the camera departments choice. It's the studios' and they are the ones writing the checks. So good luck telling them how you think it should be done. I'd be happy to sell you a Nagra 4.2 and a Sennheiser T416 but the Nagra has a full time job keeping the door to the basement open.

D.

[tourtelot]

Oh and by the way. I would LOVE to do a single camera show with two good boommen, but you know, haven't been on one of those in a number of years. Sound had it's own truck on my last job because the camera package was so large, I couldn't fit my stuff on the truck. Also, ALWAYS remember, no matter what, and how much it sucks, PICTURE IS KING.

D.

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by tourtelot

See the above questions, and try doing the job on a TV series being hosed down with a B-camera all the time. You can't do it with one boom mic. Can not be done.

Okay, in the past, before post discovered iso tracks, you could do a single camera show with a mono Nagra and a 416. When the directors let you get you dialog in the coverage close up, and wide shots with out dialog were okay because he know that you'd give him clean track in the coverage, that was okay. They don't do it that way anymore, at least in my end of the business. I can only speak about my work, but if I tried to do my shows with one (or even two) boommen, I'd be fired day number 3. And it's not the camera departments choice. It's the studios' and they are the ones writing the checks. So good luck telling them how you think it should be done. I'd be happy to sell you a Nagra 4.2 and a Sennheiser T416 but the Nagra has a full time job keeping the door to the basement open.

D.

Hey, I'd pull that nagra apart, there's some cool parts in there.
I'd put lavs everywhere and mix them with an ambient mic on a discrete track so it could be decided later how much to put in.
The portable recorder I have will do 4 discrete tracks, the other will do 24, my daw I haven't reached the track limit yet.